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09-26-2015, 08:18 AM - 2 Likes   #946
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Speaking of cabinetry, one can age a cabinet by looking at what the cabinetmaker didn't do. They worked with the tooling and techniques available to them. So you look at the backs which weren't visible, especially the inside of the back. Early craftsmen left them rough because the amount of labor required to smooth and finish was substantial. As tooling became available the areas they finished increased because it was possible.

In other words the limits in your hardware or technique show up not in what photos you take, but the ones you don't. 30 random viewers wouldn't know that.

09-26-2015, 09:07 AM   #947
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Well at least you aren't generalizing anymore.

And yes the crop resolution is an issue, and I'm not certain yet which way I will go. I want more of everything.

Yesterday we were watching a grizzly and the 500 mm was too long on the apsc. I shot with the 300. On a full frame the 500 would have given even better results. But many times I depend on the reach available by cropping.
09-26-2015, 09:08 AM   #948
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Whew!

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
...or who are in very specialized areas of photography where the right equipment is absolutely crucial. There's a lot of people on the site that confuse themselves thinking they are that type of person. That they need some kind of special technical spec to do what they do. Most of them just need to learn how to set up a shot with what they have. And guess what, if you won't do what it takes to get the shots you want with what you have, you probably won't do what it takes to get it with your new equipment either.
Thanks, you helped me save a lot of money and get my a$$ off here and outside!
09-26-2015, 10:28 AM   #949
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Well at least you aren't generalizing anymore.

And yes the crop resolution is an issue, and I'm not certain yet which way I will go. I want more of everything.

Yesterday we were watching a grizzly and the 500 mm was too long on the apsc. I shot with the 300. On a full frame the 500 would have given even better results. But many times I depend on the reach available by cropping.
This will be one of the nice things about FF if Pentax implements crop mode properly. You will just switch between crop mode for distance and FF for wider. I do it all all the time with the A7rii.

09-26-2015, 11:15 AM   #950
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
This will be one of the nice things about FF if Pentax implements crop mode properly. You will just switch between crop mode for distance and FF for wider. I do it all all the time with the A7rii.
That isn't the issue. It is cropping the capture to frame the subject. It isn't uncommon to crop a 24mp image down to about 1/4 the original size, and the remaining detail depends on resolution and low noise. WIth the same lens on the same subject at the same distance the full frame shot would need to be cropped even more severely, and the lower resolution may lead to a loss of quality.

As with everything there are positives and negatives, so I'm not certain how this would end up in my shooting. I don't think it is clear cut, but I would like to find out. a 32mp full frame is the minimum I would consider, anything higher resolution than that would be better.
09-26-2015, 11:32 AM   #951
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I find shots like this:
https://500px.com/photo/122898721
Taken with my k5 will benefit so much more from
The FF. I took this shot on a manfrotto tripod and live view settings. Spot on white balance and focus, but still the resolution lacks doesn't it
09-27-2015, 01:26 PM - 1 Like   #952
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mattox Quote
I find shots like this:
https://500px.com/photo/122898721
Taken with my k5 will benefit so much more from
The FF. I took this shot on a manfrotto tripod and live view settings. Spot on white balance and focus, but still the resolution lacks doesn't it
I think you'd find a big difference shooting that same scene on a K-3, given you were using a DA*16-50. Whether it's simply a matter of moving from 16 to 24 MP or not, I can't really say, but having used my 16-50 on a K20D, a K-5 and a K-3, my initial and ongoing reaction has been that the K-3 suits it much better. That scene shot on a 35FF will be different again in some ways, but you'll need the new DFA24-70 to find out.
09-30-2015, 07:07 PM   #953
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
...In 99% of the images taken, a 10 MP image is good enough, and the format of the camera used is pretty much irrelevant.

.......

Call me skeptical, but, I just don't buy 99% of the non-sense, and the posturing that goes with it.
Much of what you've argued here is very true, and I would totally agree that only a small %% of images created will actually benefit from being created with anything more than an iPhone, and even fewer of those images will ever actually be printed at a size that makes the difference even noticeable.

However, what I'd like to know if you understand is, that this whole discussion flies in the face of all modern society's reasons for technological advancement. This kind of "good enough" thinking would never have gotten us to where we are today, in many different aspects of science, from medical care to space exploration. Just saying "ehh, 99% of society doesn't NEED more than XYZ" would effectively put us decades behind where we are today.

All of this discussion can be entertaining for some, and the mantra "get out and shoot with the gear you've got" is always good to remember. But I still wish folks would have an increased willingness to say "Yeah, I see your point. OK I have been sufficiently entertained by this, time to move on."

Then again, if all of the internet were to magically start doing that, we'd be right back where we started- 99% of the internet would be one heck of a boring place.

So, carry on I suppose...

09-30-2015, 08:12 PM   #954
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ian Stuart Forsyth Quote
This brings me back to the point of FF being more versatile and for lenses of the same low light performance like a 50-135 F2.8 for cropped and the 70-200 F4 for full frame the price difference is negligible. But when pushed with ether cropping to gain more reach or with a TC there is very little fine detail loss

Shot with a 36mp FF camera in 24mp crop 1.25 crop with a 70-200 F4 and 1.4 TC,


While this is not giving the full resolution advantage of what a FF 24mp body would you still see very little loss with a tc on a zoom wide open


You had a quibble with my run down a few weeks back on why someone would only buy FF and use equivalent lenses to what one would use on a cropped camera and this is why, with that single walk around lenses and TC priced in the ballpark of what a cropped cameras lenses cost I get a very sharp 70-350mm lens on a d800 cropped to 24mp

If all I have to do is pay the additional cost of the 24mp FF body to gain this resolution (versatility ), then only to realize that now any of my equivalent lenses, old out dated lenses, expensive primes and fast wide-angle lenses benefit from this cost it kind of makes the price of going FF not so bad. Spend more on a 36mp even more versatility



More of the people you speak of that don't need the benefits of FF are the very same that buy the K7 then the k5 then the K3 for less improvement than what we see between the k3 and a FF version of 24mp I bet you they'll still spend more next release in this chase next year. But once someone utters the 2 letters FF we have the brigade come along telling us how FF is not need for those people. I hope to see you in the next thread "should I up grade my K3II to the K3V"
I am out of this chase with the d800 that is 3 years old and in the next 3 years still be in the lead with IQ that I seek over apsc (only costing me $0.01 per photograph more). I only have 2 lens that cost me more than what I would have paid over a smaller format, the 28mm F1.8 $250 but its also a faster lens and the 35 F1.4 but if I went with F1.8 FF would have not cost me that much more

This photograph cost me 1 cent more going to a FF36 camera, I spent more on coffee that night than I did using a FF camera
My experience is that folks who upgrade frequently continue to do so, whatever format they are using. There are plenty of crop shooters still shooting with K10s or K5s. My current gear is a K5 II and a K3, both over two years old. There was a lot more reason to upgrade in the past when each new body brought more advancements.

I have said before that I will buy a full frame camera, so not sure if you are confusing me with someone else. I just am not someone who believes that one format as the only way to go and at this point, you can get a crop frame camera with a kit lens and a couple of primes for four hundred dollars. Not sure how many cents a photo will cost you with that, but surely it is a cheap way to learn.

Even when I get a full frame camera, I am not the sort of person to look down on those who shoot lesser formats.
09-30-2015, 09:23 PM   #955
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My experience is that folks who upgrade frequently continue to do so, whatever format they are using. There are plenty of crop shooters still shooting with K10s or K5s. My current gear is a K5 II and a K3, both over two years old. There was a lot more reason to upgrade in the past when each new body brought more advancements.

I have said before that I will buy a full frame camera, so not sure if you are confusing me with someone else. I just am not someone who believes that one format as the only way to go and at this point, you can get a crop frame camera with a kit lens and a couple of primes for four hundred dollars. Not sure how many cents a photo will cost you with that, but surely it is a cheap way to learn.

Even when I get a full frame camera, I am not the sort of person to look down on those who shoot lesser formats.
Plenty of times, I have waited until a camera was 2-3 years old before buying one, and I've bought all of those 2-3 year old cameras used for dirt-cheap when I did buy them.

Other times, I've jumped on a relatively brand-new camera, because I believed it would offer me something that no previous camera could.

The world is full of different types of people, different habits in consumers.

Often, the reason to upgrade is more a desire than a need. But that's totally OK. That's what drives our economy. That's what funds the next generation camera, the one that someone out there really DOES put to good use.

At the end of the day, money is for spending. If you're working hard, and not living on credit cards, then go ahead and indulge in your hobbies! As long as you remember that it's about the creative passion, the experience of adventure, and the final images you share with friends and family, then who cares what camera you buy?

=Matt=
10-01-2015, 05:36 AM   #956
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matthew Saville Quote
Plenty of times, I have waited until a camera was 2-3 years old before buying one, and I've bought all of those 2-3 year old cameras used for dirt-cheap when I did buy them.

Other times, I've jumped on a relatively brand-new camera, because I believed it would offer me something that no previous camera could.

The world is full of different types of people, different habits in consumers.

Often, the reason to upgrade is more a desire than a need. But that's totally OK. That's what drives our economy. That's what funds the next generation camera, the one that someone out there really DOES put to good use.

At the end of the day, money is for spending. If you're working hard, and not living on credit cards, then go ahead and indulge in your hobbies! As long as you remember that it's about the creative passion, the experience of adventure, and the final images you share with friends and family, then who cares what camera you buy?

=Matt=
I certainly don't. That's why the format wars are so aggravating to me. In the end, all of these cameras take good photos and that probably is the point of having a camera. I think most people end up with gear that is a compromise between what they want and what they can afford. If that's a five year old K5 and an 18-135, I'll still enjoy their photos and won't ever think about the fact that they would have been better taken with a bigger sensor.

Most of us are more limited by our skill than the sensor size in the camera anyway.

I'll freely admit that I don't need a full frame camera -- crop is good enough for me, but I want one and that's plenty of reason to get one (I can afford it too).
10-01-2015, 05:44 AM   #957
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QuoteQuote:
Often, the reason to upgrade is more a desire than a need. But that's totally OK. That's what drives our economy. That's what funds the next generation camera, the one that someone out there really DOES put to good use.
Or to put it more directly, those who don't need it will probably provide 80% of the money generated by the full frame, we should be thanking them. It will be there, because those of us who don't need it will buy it anyway. Just because it's there, and we like shiny things that take pictures.
10-01-2015, 06:42 AM   #958
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It will be there, because those of us who don't need it will buy it anyway. Just because it's there, and we like shiny things that take pictures.
We the skills that you have, and I've seen some of your photographs, you don't need a full frame camera.
10-01-2015, 02:33 PM   #959
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
This has become a stupid discussion. Haven't read everything, but still...If you dont need FF, fine for you! Dont get one! But there a few of us who does! Luckily there will be a FF option for us too soon. For me, APS-C isn't quite up there! FF is crucial for me! If Pentax haven't promised me FF, i would go back to Nikon in a heartbeat.
The whole discussion of the amount of people that need or don't need a FF camera is silly anyway. Some of you pros definitely need it, simply because you'll be at an disadvantage without it. Other pros that do different work from you may be better off with the 645D. Some photographers create great art with their smartphones. And so on.

One thing that is interesting, though, is that all those photographers who shoot sunsets with popup flashes lighting up from their Canon Rebels may soon be gone for good from the whole camera market. Because they'll discover they can create better photo memories with their phones than with the SLRs that they never really learned to master. And that means that the days of ever growing sales numbers are gone. Of course the shrinking of the market will partly be compensated by many new photographers becoming affluent enough to buy expensive cameras from the growing middle classes of large countries like China, India, Brazil or Nigeria. But it will just be a question of price before many more than 5% of those that still want (or "need") more than a smartphone will "need" a full format camera simply because they don't see why they should settle for less.
10-01-2015, 03:04 PM - 1 Like   #960
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OK, there has been a clean up of a spill in Isle 5. A political spill that is.

Let's be clear: Political posts are not allowed on this forum unless they relate directly to photography, and there is only one place such relevant posts may be made - and it's NOT News and Rumors.

If anyone wishes to continue down this path, the mods will start helping you see there error of your ways.


Carry on.

Last edited by Tom S.; 10-01-2015 at 03:29 PM.
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