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10-08-2015, 07:12 AM - 2 Likes   #1006
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
How long should we wait ? What if Pentax FF is released in 2017 ? Should we wait ?
Dont know about "we", but I should and will wait. Should you wait as well?

10-08-2015, 07:19 AM   #1007
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I think bringing out a 3000-4000 camera would be a huge mistake for Pentax. The D750 hit the niche that was open for a short while, thats when they should of made a move. Now there is a little room for something like the d810 only cheaper and better built with IS. I doubt they can top the autofocus but if they can offer something else unique it could be a hit. The price cant be much more than 2500 though.
10-08-2015, 10:43 AM   #1008
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QuoteOriginally posted by Belnan Quote
I think bringing out a 3000-4000 camera would be a huge mistake for Pentax. The D750 hit the niche that was open for a short while, thats when they should of made a move. Now there is a little room for something like the d810 only cheaper and better built with IS. I doubt they can top the autofocus but if they can offer something else unique it could be a hit. The price cant be much more than 2500 though.
That's it. If Pentaxians are the ones who were not willing to spend the money for a D800/D810/5DII/5DIII (if not they already left), then the Pentax full frame should be priced above the k-3 and below a D810/5DII, otherwise it won't find many buyers...Sorry. A lot of Pentaxians are various beliefs, claims etc... based on their emotions and other things. But I trust that Ricoh will do the right things, and I'm also sure that they won't turn Pentax around... simply because market shares change very slowly in the interchangeable camera business (due to proprietary lens mounts), and in order to turn around a brand like Pentax, they need to have products value above their weakest competitors for several generation of products over at least half a decade... and where to they find the money to sustain market penetration losses for 5 to 10 years ? So, what will happen, best case, is, Pentax will survive, or typically loose a small bit of market share (just a bit every year, but they loose a few more customers in 2015, and if they release a FF in 2016, then they wont loose so much).
10-08-2015, 10:46 AM   #1009
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If Pentaxians are the ones who are not willing to spend the money for a mid-level FF and accompanying lenses, then perhaps Pentax needs new Pentaxians

10-08-2015, 10:49 AM   #1010
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
If Pentaxians are the ones who are not willing to spend the money for a mid-level FF and accompanying lenses, then perhaps Pentax needs new Pentaxians
Or the fable of the little sentence versus the market research.
10-08-2015, 10:57 AM   #1011
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I'm actually talking about a lengthy, difficult process of rebuilding the brand's prestige - of which having a salable (to us) FF product line-up is just the first step.
They might have started it already - see the new D FA tele zooms, "recruiting" people like kenspo...
10-08-2015, 01:54 PM   #1012
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QuoteOriginally posted by Belnan Quote
I think bringing out a 3000-4000 camera would be a huge mistake for Pentax. The D750 hit the niche that was open for a short while, thats when they should of made a move. Now there is a little room for something like the d810 only cheaper and better built with IS. I doubt they can top the autofocus but if they can offer something else unique it could be a hit. The price cant be much more than 2500 though.
As a D750 owner myself, I have to agree. Pentax' sweet spot is around $2500, at least eventually. (Accounting for a ~10% drop in price after the initial pre-order rush)

If Pentax wants to aim for ~$3500 instead, there's only one way they'll get away with it: the FF sensor they use must be jaw-droppingly close to the 645Z sensor, or better. A reduction in pixel count could actually keep the pixel size similar / identical to that of the 645Z. (645Z is 5.3 microns; 24 MP full-frame is 5.9 microns, 36 MP full-frame is 4.9 microns, I think?)

Therefore, the question I keep coming back to is simple: WHERE is Pentax getting the sensor for their upcoming FF body, and how will it compare to existing FF sensors?

The FF resolution champ, the Canon 5DsR, is 52 MP but falls quite short in most other aspects of image quality, namely high ISO performance and base ISO dynamic range.

The DR champ, the Nikon D810, seems pretty unbeatable, but then again its high ISO performance is overshadowed by the stunning D810A. Considering Pentax' affinity for nightscape photography using GPS and sensor movements for astro-tracking, is it possible they'll do something astro-related in their FF offering? A user-changeable IR filter?

The jack-of-all-trades, the Sony A7R II, is impressive all-around considering its 42 MP pixel count, but I think it would be easy to beat in at least one or two categories of quality, if Pentax is really swinging for the fences here.

TLDR; just tell us what sensors are being considered / finalized for use, dear Kenspo / Asahiman! :-D
10-08-2015, 04:33 PM   #1013
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Maybe not, maybe yes!

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
If Pentaxians are the ones who are not willing to spend the money for a mid-level FF and accompanying lenses, then perhaps Pentax needs new Pentaxians

The reason many start with Pentax is the price!! Then, the fact that the camera has the vibration control inside, no need to buy it many times in every lens. Lenses are a lot cheaper than any Canon or Nikon. In Pentax, the expensive one should be the camera, not the lenses. The third thing that makes Pentax ideal (just like Leica) is backward compatibility. I can use my 60 year old lenses. I can see CaNikans moving to Pentax if Pentax delivers good AF as Canon.

10-08-2015, 05:05 PM   #1014
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A lot cheaper??
yep our primes are dirt cheap and offer a quality that is head to head with some UBER lenses that cost you a used car when you want to buy them new...
but overall? when you consider zoom lenses that are a bit more than pure optics and a short screw drive?

no. that with the price.. cant be... Nikons "Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 55-300 mm 1:4,5-5,6G ED VR" has a price tag that says 250 Euros.... therefore it is not weathersealed... but it has VR and Silent drive....
.... Pentaxes WR 55-300 has no silent drive but weather-sealing and will cost you about 400Euros in Europe...??? Is that really that cheap for putting in some gaskets?? I dont know i am no technician...

I just wanted to state, that one should not give himself to an illusion. Overall, when it comes to pricing, it is nearly the same whichsoever brand you may choose. Where you feel, there you go.
I will not buy the Cam for 2000 Euro... Defenitely not.

I just know for me, it is the whole Pentax Package... weather-sealing, simplicity of the handling... etc. it doesnt feel and handle like a girls toy, even when it optically looks like a Hello-Kitty-Coffee-Mug...
You want a Sony A7 because all the cool kids shake it in their hands? Go get it.
You feel the need for a 12.000 Euro Canon? Go and get it.
I will wait for the Pentax FF !

If I feel i can effort it, i will buy it.
10-11-2015, 03:12 PM   #1015
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
yes, i am amongst those 5%..But we pros that need and use FF, will also generate sales for lower cameras. So I'm glad Pentax knows that, and that the people here are not the ones to decide that
+1 Couldn't agree more.

It is, as you point out Kenspo, a stupid discussion. It's also one that the same old protagonists (or should that be antagonists!) have been arguing over for years on this site now.

Pentax needs reviews like this, from working pros, to generate credibility (and sales):

The Pentax 645z Is the Best Still Camera I’ve Ever Used | Resource Magazine


That's why they need a good FF offering. To suggest that the anoraks on this site will be the 'make or break' of a Pentax FF is madness. They want pros to use and endorse the brand....not fanboys...(although fanboys help the bottom line)
10-11-2015, 03:17 PM   #1016
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QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
+1 Couldn't agree more.

It is, as you point out Kenspo, a stupid discussion. It's also one that the same old protagonists (or should that be antagonists!) have been arguing over for years on this site now.

Pentax needs reviews like this, from working pros, to generate credibility (and sales):

The Pentax 645z Is the Best Still Camera Iíve Ever Used | Resource Magazine


That's why they need a good FF offering. To suggest that the anoraks on this site will be the 'make or break' of a Pentax FF is madness. They want pros to use and endorse the brand....not fanboys...(although fanboys help the bottom line)
If the Pentax FF has the right sensor for what I do, I'll certainly be singing its praises in my official reviews. :-)
10-11-2015, 03:23 PM   #1017
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matthew Saville Quote
As a D750 owner myself, I have to agree. Pentax' sweet spot is around $2500, at least eventually. (Accounting for a ~10% drop in price after the initial pre-order rush)

If Pentax wants to aim for ~$3500 instead, there's only one way they'll get away with it: the FF sensor they use must be jaw-droppingly close to the 645Z sensor, or better. A reduction in pixel count could actually keep the pixel size similar / identical to that of the 645Z. (645Z is 5.3 microns; 24 MP full-frame is 5.9 microns, 36 MP full-frame is 4.9 microns, I think?)

Therefore, the question I keep coming back to is simple: WHERE is Pentax getting the sensor for their upcoming FF body, and how will it compare to existing FF sensors?

The FF resolution champ, the Canon 5DsR, is 52 MP but falls quite short in most other aspects of image quality, namely high ISO performance and base ISO dynamic range.

The DR champ, the Nikon D810, seems pretty unbeatable, but then again its high ISO performance is overshadowed by the stunning D810A. Considering Pentax' affinity for nightscape photography using GPS and sensor movements for astro-tracking, is it possible they'll do something astro-related in their FF offering? A user-changeable IR filter?

The jack-of-all-trades, the Sony A7R II, is impressive all-around considering its 42 MP pixel count, but I think it would be easy to beat in at least one or two categories of quality, if Pentax is really swinging for the fences here.

TLDR; just tell us what sensors are being considered / finalized for use, dear Kenspo / Asahiman! :-D
I've actually been a (rather lonely) advocate of a 24MP sensor for quite some time. Are you saying above that you are in the same camp?

---------- Post added 10-12-15 at 09:29 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Matthew Saville Quote
If the Pentax FF has the right sensor for what I do, I'll certainly be singing its praises in my official reviews. :-)
Exactly, as will I. And that's what every camera manufacturer wants!

I'm curious what their solution is, though, Re sensor. I still believe, as a wedding photographer, that 24MP would be a better option (pixel size, potential frame rate, high ISO quality). As some have previously stated, the wedding photographer market is by far the largest in terms of pros....so....

Last edited by Poit; 10-11-2015 at 03:33 PM.
10-11-2015, 06:18 PM   #1018
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QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
I've actually been a (rather lonely) advocate of a 24MP sensor for quite some time. Are you saying above that you are in the same camp?

---------- Post added 10-12-15 at 09:29 AM ----------



Exactly, as will I. And that's what every camera manufacturer wants!

I'm curious what their solution is, though, Re sensor. I still believe, as a wedding photographer, that 24MP would be a better option (pixel size, potential frame rate, high ISO quality). As some have previously stated, the wedding photographer market is by far the largest in terms of pros....so....
I don't know that Pentax is particularly interested in the wedding market, though. I could be wrong. If they were, at least for my market here in the US, they'd be releasing insane f/1.4 lenses left and right, affordable but jaw-droppingly flawless f/1.8 lenses left and right, and a trio of 2.8 zooms for both sensor formats.

I guess they're kinda working on that last one, and their FA / DA limited primes are pretty awesome though not always super fast. But the one final key ingredient that wedding photographers demand is, wizard-like magical autofocus capabilities in low-light. Like, so dim that you can barely see through the viewfinder and hand-hold with a crazy ISO and slow-ish shutter speed, and it's still nailing focus. That's the kind of low-light AF that I've come to demand as a full-frame Nikon wedding photographer.

My interest in the Pentax FF is more for outdoor adventures and other extreme / specialty things that I think Pentax is more well-suited than any of the bigger names are. Astro-landscape photography, and any sort of extreme adventure landscape photography in general, is what I like to do in my spare time.

I may actually keep my Nikon D750 for weddings, with the 3-4 basic lenses I need to get that job done, even if I add a serious Pentax kit to my bag for my adventures.

With this in mind, my hope for the Pentax FF is that it prioritizes dynamic range and high ISO performance, and megapixels can come third on the to-do list. Having said that, since the camera will be used for landscapes, I do hope they can pull off the #1 and #2 priorities AND still hit 36-42 megapixels, actually.

36 and 42 are relatively manageable numbers when it comes to filesize, if you consider that both Nikon and Sony offer 12-bit lossy / lossless compression that gets the raw files down to about 1 MB per 1 MP. And as a wedding photographer, I find myself frequently using 1.2x and 1.5x crop mode for general candid imagery, which at 24 and 16 MP respectively, makes 36 MP a great tool for event photojournalism.

Keep in mind that I'm also a fan of the two-camera idea; I believe that eventually if Pentax is going to really do anything with this, they need to expand beyond a single flagship full-frame line and offer a high MP and low MP camera. 24 and 42 go together very nicely.
10-11-2015, 07:54 PM   #1019
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matthew Saville Quote
But the one final key ingredient that wedding photographers demand is, wizard-like magical autofocus capabilities in low-light. Like, so dim that you can barely see through the viewfinder and hand-hold with a crazy ISO and slow-ish shutter speed, and it's still nailing focus
But I thought that low light AF sensitivity is the one area where Pentax AF does hold its own, no?
10-12-2015, 05:14 AM   #1020
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matthew Saville Quote
If the Pentax FF has the right sensor for what I do, I'll certainly be singing its praises in my official reviews. :-)
Maybe I'm taking you too literally but wouldn't an "official review" be based on how well a camera performs for a broad spectrum of users and not necessarily for what you use it for?
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