Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-15-2015, 03:51 AM   #1081
Pentaxian
gazonk's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Oslo area, Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,512
QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
Or it is a play on the meme to be Rick Rolled.
Sure it is, I just wonder if he just coined it :-)

10-15-2015, 04:02 AM   #1082
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,177
It actually works on two different levels.
10-16-2015, 08:18 AM   #1083
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,982
QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
Not all common defects are features, and this is definitely a bug.
We completely disagree here. From my viewpoint this is definitely not a bug, it is definitely not even a defect. When I set the camera on "Manual", I want and expect that I will have complete control. I don't want the camera to think for itself. I want to be the master and for it to be the obedient servant. To me, ISO is the most important thing for me to be in control of.

QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on what I expect, but I don't know how to be clearer. I just want the totally simple, obvious thing: When exposure is locked, the camera does not change the exposure. It's not a new idea, it's not complicated.
I did understand you the first time; there is no reason for you to further explain the concept. It is not complicated, but to me it is also not obvious. I just plain don't want it. When I am taking a picture, especially when I'm under time pressure, I am completely focused on the scene, on composing the picture. I come into the situation with everything set the way I want it, and am only vaguely aware of how I'm holding the camera or of what buttons might be under my fingers (my habits date back many years to a time when cameras had virtually no buttons), and I'm focusing on the scene, not at the little lights in the viewfinder. I don't want there to be any possibility that I might come home and only then discover that the camera has made a decision I was unaware of that has diminished the quality of the image in a way that I was totally unaware of before.
10-16-2015, 09:54 AM   #1084
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
You are wrong. In manual mode you operate without the camera overriding your decisions on exposure parameters, but ISO is just as adjustable as shutter and aperture. (On a camera where ISO is adjustable at all, but that's what we are talking about here.)
...Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on what I expect, but I don't know how to be clearer. I just want the totally simple, obvious thing: When exposure is locked, the camera does not change the exposure. It's not a new idea, it's not complicated.
i don't have a horse in this race, and i find what you are attempting to describe interesting, however, you labeled the concept wrong by bringing the term "manual mode" into a conversation where you want the camera to automatically change parameters... that is not correct.

"manual mode" means that nothing changes, period... automatically changing iso is indeed a change in an exposure parameter, even when the overall exposure is roughly the same, because something else gets altered to compensate for the auto-iso change.

it almost sounds to me like you are describing some sort of hybrid autoiso function.

10-16-2015, 10:03 AM   #1085
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 5,790
Only 4 more months to go.
10-16-2015, 10:09 AM   #1086
Site Supporter
Fenwoodian's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,271
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Only 4 more months to go.
Yeah, only 4 more months to go.

However, all of the great deals out there these days on the K3II are tempting me to spend my Full Frame savings on these cameras. The temptation will be even worse once we see even better prices on Pentax K3II around USA Thanksgiving time.

So far I've resisted the temptation, and I really want to hold out for the full frame. But I'm not sure that I'm strong enough....
10-16-2015, 10:40 AM   #1087
Loyal Site Supporter
drougge's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Malmö
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 787
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
We completely disagree here. From my viewpoint this is definitely not a bug, it is definitely not even a defect. When I set the camera on "Manual", I want and expect that I will have complete control. I don't want the camera to think for itself. I want to be the master and for it to be the obedient servant. To me, ISO is the most important thing for me to be in control of.
I'm asking for exactly what I see you asking for, complete control. There must be some miscommunication.

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I did understand you the first time; there is no reason for you to further explain the concept. It is not complicated, but to me it is also not obvious. I just plain don't want it. When I am taking a picture, especially when I'm under time pressure, I am completely focused on the scene, on composing the picture. I come into the situation with everything set the way I want it, and am only vaguely aware of how I'm holding the camera or of what buttons might be under my fingers (my habits date back many years to a time when cameras had virtually no buttons), and I'm focusing on the scene, not at the little lights in the viewfinder. I don't want there to be any possibility that I might come home and only then discover that the camera has made a decision I was unaware of that has diminished the quality of the image in a way that I was totally unaware of before.
This is really completely unrelated. Today, with the cameras we already have, you might spin the aperture dial, and change the aperture. You might spin the shutter dial, and change the shutter time. This is already possible. How could it possibly be more of a problem to have this: You might press the exposure lock button, and then the ISO button, and then spin one of the dials, and you would not get a different exposure. I just cannot imagine how that would be a bigger risk than what you already have.

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i don't have a horse in this race, and i find what you are attempting to describe interesting, however, you labeled the concept wrong by bringing the term "manual mode" into a conversation where you want the camera to automatically change parameters... that is not correct.

"manual mode" means that nothing changes, period... automatically changing iso is indeed a change in an exposure parameter, even when the overall exposure is roughly the same, because something else gets altered to compensate for the auto-iso change.

it almost sounds to me like you are describing some sort of hybrid autoiso function.
I am not asking the camera to change anything by itself. I don't understand where my explanation goes wrong, but it's clearly not being understood. Let me try again:

I have the camera in manual mode. Using my human brain, I decide that I the aperture is fine, but I would like to use a shorter shutter time. Not make the image darker, just use a shorter shutter time. To accomodate this without changing the aperture, I decide to use my human hands to tell the camera to increase the ISO. And then I get to tell the camera quite separately to use a shorter shutter time. All completely 100% manually.

All I'm asking for is that I get a way to tell the camera to do both those changes in lockstep, so that I don't risk changing one more than the other.

100% manually, with not a single bit of the camera deciding what to do. All decided by me.

But the current cameras do the wrong thing, they decide to brighten the scene when I specifically asked (by pressing the exposure lock button) that the scene not be made brighter. That's not leaving me in control, that's overriding my decision. And that's not what I want.
10-16-2015, 10:53 AM   #1088
Moderator PEG Judges
Kerrowdown's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Highlands of Scotland.
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 32,634
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Only 4 more months to go.
QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote
Yeah, only 4 more months to go.
I wouldn't hold your breath... we've kinda heard that before.

10-16-2015, 10:54 AM   #1089
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2012
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,728
The AE-L button is to be used after you have set up your shooting parameters, not before. It's there so you can simply recompose without changing the exposure. I don't think that button was ever intended to be used as another control point in the whole Pentax Hyper Program metering system.
10-16-2015, 11:01 AM   #1090
Loyal Site Supporter
drougge's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Malmö
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 787
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
The AE-L button is to be used after you have set up your shooting parameters, not before. It's there so you can simply recompose without changing the exposure. I don't think that button was ever intended to be used as another control point in the whole Pentax Hyper Program metering system.
That is how it works in automatic modes, yes. But it absolutely is useable in manual mode, on the cameras we have today. It works as I want it to for aperture/shutter speed adjustment, but not for ISO adjustment.

I have made an alternative explanation that may be easier to follow:

Imagine a camera with three dials in a row on the top plate: An aperture dial, a shutter speed dial and an ISO dial. Nothing else. Always completely manual.

Now imagine a little gear you can place between the aperture dial and the shutter speed dial. This is the current exposure lock function as it works in manual mode today.

And what I'm asking for, all that I'm asking for, is that it be made possible to place this little gear between the shutter speed and ISO dials also.
10-16-2015, 11:40 AM   #1091
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
Now imagine a little gear you can place between the aperture dial and the shutter speed dial. This is the current exposure lock function as it works in manual mode today.

And what I'm asking for, all that I'm asking for, is that it be made possible to place this little gear between the shutter speed and ISO dials also.
change one parameter a stop, it changes the other parameter a stop, but in the opposite direction.

you can do that already, by manually twisting those dials yourself, it takes just a second.

the problem is, you want ae-l as the automatic guide for judging the overall exposure(that's not a manual mode function), because with an ovf camera, you have no way of knowing what the exposure is, you can't see true exposure in an ovf.

that sort of thing is why people use liveview, or much better, move to evf cameras for judging the exposure; they have wysiwyg displays, histograms in the evf, exposure guides in the evf, etc.
10-16-2015, 12:02 PM   #1092
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,982
QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
I'm asking for exactly what I see you asking for, complete control. There must be some miscommunication.
The only miscommunication is that you do not understand my "old school" mind, and I have absolutely no interest in changing something that has worked well for me for fifty years. If they were to provide something like this, I would want it to be extremely difficult to engage so I would have zero chance of doing it by accident (and I have no expectation of ever doing it on purpose)

QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
IThis is really completely unrelated. Today, with the cameras we already have, you might spin the aperture dial, and change the aperture. You might spin the shutter dial, and change the shutter time. This is already possible. How could it possibly be more of a problem to have this: You might press the exposure lock button, and then the ISO button, and then spin one of the dials, and you would not get a different exposure. I just cannot imagine how that would be a bigger risk than what you already have.
No, because my human brain has always associated shutter speed and aperture; if I change one, either I plan to change the other or I plan to change the exposure. The one thing I do not want to change ever,without my explicit intervention, is ISO

QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
I am not asking the camera to change anything by itself. I don't understand where my explanation goes wrong, but it's clearly not being understood. Let me try again:

I have the camera in manual mode. Using my human brain, I decide that I the aperture is fine, but I would like to use a shorter shutter time. Not make the image darker, just use a shorter shutter time. To accomodate this without changing the aperture, I decide to use my human hands to tell the camera to increase the ISO. And then I get to tell the camera quite separately to use a shorter shutter time. All completely 100% manually.

All I'm asking for is that I get a way to tell the camera to do both those changes in lockstep, so that I don't risk changing one more than the other.

100% manually, with not a single bit of the camera deciding what to do. All decided by me.
First you tell me that you don't want the camera to change anything, and then you tell me that you want it to make a change offsetting a change I made. Changing ISO is making a change. You are not listening!! I don't want the camera to ever change the ISO setting unless I specifically ask it to change ISO

QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
But the current cameras do the wrong thing, they decide to brighten the scene when I specifically asked (by pressing the exposure lock button) that the scene not be made brighter. That's not leaving me in control, that's overriding my decision. And that's not what I want.
No, they do exactly the right thing. I would never want the camera to change ISO at the last moment. If I touch the exposure lock button, it would be completely by accident, because I was focusing on other tasks. If it increased ISO, potentially increasing noise, it would be overriding my choice and failing to make the scene brighter, because that is the only choice I would be making at that time.
10-16-2015, 12:36 PM   #1093
Loyal Site Supporter
drougge's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Malmö
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 787
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
No, because my human brain has always associated shutter speed and aperture; if I change one, either I plan to change the other or I plan to change the exposure. The one thing I do not want to change ever,without my explicit intervention, is ISO

First you tell me that you don't want the camera to change anything, and then you tell me that you want it to make a change offsetting a change I made. Changing ISO is making a change. You are not listening!! I don't want the camera to ever change the ISO setting unless I specifically ask it to change ISO.
I despair of ever communicating what I mean. I never want the ISO to change without changing it myself, just like you.

I do want to have the option of doing either of these two little work flows, and only the first is currently provided:
  • I press the ISO button.
  • I spin the control dial six steps.
  • The ISO is changed six steps. The image is brighter.

and the other one, the one I want to also have as an option, under my complete control:
  • I press the ISO button.
  • I press the exposure lock button.
  • I spin the control dial six steps.
  • The ISO and shutter speed change six steps, without affecting image brightness.

Maybe you have never in your life wanted a shorter shutter speed without also making the image darker, but this is something that happens to me. And then I don't want to have to count the clicks.
10-16-2015, 01:00 PM   #1094
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2012
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,728
QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
I despair of ever communicating what I mean. I never want the ISO to change without changing it myself, just like you.

I do want to have the option of doing either of these two little work flows, and only the first is currently provided:
  • I press the ISO button.
  • I spin the control dial six steps.
  • The ISO is changed six steps. The image is brighter.

and the other one, the one I want to also have as an option, under my complete control:
  • I press the ISO button.
  • I press the exposure lock button.
  • I spin the control dial six steps.
  • The ISO and shutter speed change six steps, without affecting image brightness.

Maybe you have never in your life wanted a shorter shutter speed without also making the image darker, but this is something that happens to me. And then I don't want to have to count the clicks.
So why do you want shutter speed to change when you change ISO? Why not aperture? Why not a combination of shutter speed and aperture (which already exists as Sv mode)? No matter as you're still asking the AE-L button to do something it was never intended for.
10-16-2015, 01:22 PM   #1095
Loyal Site Supporter
drougge's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Malmö
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 787
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
So why do you want shutter speed to change when you change ISO? Why not aperture? Why not a combination of shutter speed and aperture (which already exists as Sv mode)? No matter as you're still asking the AE-L button to do something it was never intended for.
I was trying to keep it slightly simpler. But I'll try a more comprehensive description.

I have a K5. It is set to manual mode. I go to shooting menu 5, option "E-dial programming", page 2. For the manual mode green button I select "Tv SHIFT". This way I have selected that I prefer the camera to change the shutter speed when I press the green button. If I press the green button, the shutter speed will be adjusted to match the metered exposure. So far this is all as the camera actually works.

So, I'm shooting on a tripod. I find that my shots don't have enough DOF. I wish to stop down the aperture three stops. So here's what I can do:
  • Move the aperture wheel six steps, carefully counting them.
  • Move the shutter speed wheel six steps, again carefully counting them.

But that's stupid. I don't want to count them twice, and may in fact not want to count them at all, I just want to spin the wheel until my desired aperture is selected. Fortunately for me, the camera provides a convenient function for that, so I instead do this:
  • Press the AE-L button.
  • Move the aperture wheel six steps, not counting them all that carefully.

This is still how the camera works today. I say this is a good thing, this is a function that should be there. So now try a slightly different scenario:

I'm shooting hand held. My shots are blurry, because the shutter time is too long. I wish to have a shorter shutter time by 3 stops (6 steps on the dial, in my configuration). So, here's what I do:
  • Move the shutter speed wheel six steps, carefully counting them.
  • Press the ISO button.
  • Move the ISO wheel six steps, again carefully counting them.

But that's still stupid. I still don't want to count them twice! So I wish to instead to this:
  • Press the ISO button.
  • Press the AE-L button.
  • Move the ISO wheel six steps.

But this doesn't work. My shutter speed (which I selected at the top of the post) isn't changed. I want it changed. I pressed the AE-L button because I wanted it changed. I have already told the camera that it is the shutter speed I want changed, so there is no need to be confused over what I want changed.

This is in my opinion a bug. Anyone who claims that what I ask for is impossible, or that it would make the camera unusable to them, must be thinking I asked for something else.

Or possibly I'm insane. I'm starting to worry.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
36mp, body, count, crop, d4, d800, december, dont, ff, interview, landscape, months, mp, nikon, november, offer, pentax, pentax ff camera, pentax news, pentax rumors, pentax shooter, people, photography, post, reason, ricoh, sensor, sony
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crazy way-out theory on the FF (just for fun). pathdoc Pentax Full Frame 17 05-13-2015 05:30 PM
Pets Ricoh Pup 4 months sherrvonne Post Your Photos! 5 05-08-2015 04:03 PM
Any Pentax FF camera field testers out there? rawr Pentax Full Frame 46 05-03-2015 04:37 PM
People 4 months in the world derelict Post Your Photos! 3 04-11-2015 06:39 AM
Online Photographer: FF will die out, except... philbaum Pentax Full Frame 401 07-11-2014 05:13 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:05 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top