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10-16-2015, 01:51 PM   #1096
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
I was trying to keep it slightly simpler. But I'll try a more comprehensive description.

I have a K5. It is set to manual mode. I go to shooting menu 5, option "E-dial programming", page 2. For the manual mode green button I select "Tv SHIFT". This way I have selected that I prefer the camera to change the shutter speed when I press the green button. If I press the green button, the shutter speed will be adjusted to match the metered exposure. So far this is all as the camera actually works.

So, I'm shooting on a tripod. I find that my shots don't have enough DOF. I wish to stop down the aperture three stops. So here's what I can do:
  • Move the aperture wheel six steps, carefully counting them.
  • Move the shutter speed wheel six steps, again carefully counting them.

But that's stupid. I don't want to count them twice, and may in fact not want to count them at all, I just want to spin the wheel until my desired aperture is selected. Fortunately for me, the camera provides a convenient function for that, so I instead do this:
  • Press the AE-L button.
  • Move the aperture wheel six steps, not counting them all that carefully.

This is still how the camera works today. I say this is a good thing, this is a function that should be there. So now try a slightly different scenario:

I'm shooting hand held. My shots are blurry, because the shutter time is too long. I wish to have a shorter shutter time by 3 stops (6 steps on the dial, in my configuration). So, here's what I do:
  • Move the shutter speed wheel six steps, carefully counting them.
  • Press the ISO button.
  • Move the ISO wheel six steps, again carefully counting them.

But that's still stupid. I still don't want to count them twice! So I wish to instead to this:
  • Press the ISO button.
  • Press the AE-L button.
  • Move the ISO wheel six steps.

But this doesn't work. My shutter speed (which I selected at the top of the post) isn't changed. I want it changed. I pressed the AE-L button because I wanted it changed. I have already told the camera that it is the shutter speed I want changed, so there is no need to be confused over what I want changed.

This is in my opinion a bug. Anyone who claims that what I ask for is impossible, or that it would make the camera unusable to them, must be thinking I asked for something else.

Or possibly I'm insane. I'm starting to worry.
I'm not ready to declare you're insane but it seems your'e trying to use the camera in a way that probably no else would think of and then are wondering why the camera isn't designed to do what you want. You're in M mode but are not using the camera as if it is in M mode. Given the way you're approaching the shots, most everyone else would naturally select Tv or TAv mode. Why not just use one of those?

10-16-2015, 03:05 PM   #1097
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I'm not ready to declare you're insane but it seems your'e trying to use the camera in a way that probably no else would think of and then are wondering why the camera isn't designed to do what you want. You're in M mode but are not using the camera as if it is in M mode. Given the way you're approaching the shots, most everyone else would naturally select Tv or TAv mode. Why not just use one of those?
I don't want the camera to mess my shot up because of metering. I want M mode.

I also don't really see what is non-M about my approach. I left out initially setting the exposure parameters, but obviously I do that. So what is non-M? That I ever change the ISO? That I want to change something that doesn't cause the exposure to change? That I ever change anything at all?

I also want to point out how extremely close the camera is to doing what I want: The one where I change shutter speed and aperture is supported. It's in the manual, it's on the camera, and it works. I've read about others using it too. It's just the specific case of changing the ISO with locked exposure that isn't working. (My last example.)
10-16-2015, 03:55 PM   #1098
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
I despair of ever communicating what I mean. I never want the ISO to change without changing it myself, just like you.

I do want to have the option of doing either of these two little work flows, and only the first is currently provided:
  • I press the ISO button.
  • I spin the control dial six steps.
  • The ISO is changed six steps. The image is brighter.

and the other one, the one I want to also have as an option, under my complete control:
  • I press the ISO button.
  • I press the exposure lock button.
  • I spin the control dial six steps.
  • The ISO and shutter speed change six steps, without affecting image brightness.

Maybe you have never in your life wanted a shorter shutter speed without also making the image darker, but this is something that happens to me. And then I don't want to have to count the clicks.
Don't despair - I have heard what you want - I simply reject it. However, it has never been clear to me that you understand my view - so I will make one final explanation (and then say nothing more on the subject)

In most of my time as a film photographer, my workflow was essentially as follows:

step 1: put roll of Kodachrome 25 into my camera
step 2: take 36 pictures
step 3: take roll of film out of camera and send to Kodak
step 4: return to step 1

Typically I had an "emergency" roll of film in my bag (for those very rare occasions when Kodachrome 25 was absolutely hopeless) - first Ektachrome 64, eventually Ektachrome 400 and/or Kodacolor 800 and/or Fujicolor 1600;
once that roll approached its expiration date, I would either use it or dump it.

All-in-all, I might change the ASA-then-ISO setting two or three times per year.

My first couple of 35mm cameras had manual mode only, then I gained aperture-priority, and finally shutter-priority. I am mostly interested in things that move, so I spend more time in shutter-priority mode than in any other mode. I use aperture-priority, or occasionally program mode, for other situations. I spent enough time in manual mode during the first ten years of my using 35mm cameras, so I don't get any joy from using it; the only use I see of manual mode is those times when I don't trust the camera's metering, so the only time I'm in manual mode, the only time I'm changing shutter speed and aperture by hand, is when my specific purpose is to change the exposure. The last thing I want is for the camera to be changing ISO when I'm in manual mode, because that would be working against my purpose for being in that mode in the first place. Most likely, I would refuse to purchase a camera that implements manual mode the way you suggested!

BTW

six steps up from ISO 100 is ISO 6400

six steps up from 1/250 is 1/1000
six steps down from 1/250 is 1/60

six steps up from f/5.6 is f/22
six steps down from f/5.6 is f/1.4

I don't see myself making many six-step trips in any mode while taking a picture, but I would rather do that than have the camera do anything on its own in manual mode, and yes, changing ISO is doing something.
10-16-2015, 04:20 PM   #1099
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The last thing I want is for the camera to be changing ISO when I'm in manual mode, because that would be working against my purpose for being in that mode in the first place. Most likely, I would refuse to purchase a camera that implements manual mode the way you suggested!
You already have a camera where it is possible to change the ISO in manual mode. Really, did you truly read what I wrote? If you press the ISO button and then spin a control dial, is it your wish that the camera in no way at all react to this? The only change I'm after is something that happens when I'm already setting the ISO to some new value. And once again: Nothing automatic, all the results are 100% predictable before I touch the camera.

I want no changes at all except for when I'm changing the ISO and have exposure lock active.

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
six steps up from ISO 100 is ISO 6400

six steps up from 1/250 is 1/1000
six steps down from 1/250 is 1/60

six steps up from f/5.6 is f/22
six steps down from f/5.6 is f/1.4

I don't see myself making many six-step trips in any mode while taking a picture, but I would rather do that than have the camera do anything on its own in manual mode, and yes, changing ISO is doing something.
Six clicks on the wheel is not six stops, it's three stops (or two stops if you configure 1/3 stop increments). And your numbers are wrong, but that doesn't matter.


I think I understand what you want, but you keep saying that what I want would break your workflow, and yet I'm sure it would in no way at all change the outcome of anything you ever do with your camera. At least one of us is wrong, but this is getting us nowhere. So I'm out too, no more from me unless I'm asked a specific question.

10-16-2015, 04:28 PM   #1100
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
... Fortunately for me, the camera provides a convenient function for that, so I instead do this:
  • Press the AE-L button.
  • Move the aperture wheel six steps, not counting them all that carefully.
...
Didn't know that. Totally see the usecase and how this will be usefull for me. Thanks...
10-16-2015, 05:04 PM   #1101
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Don't despair - I have heard what you want - I simply reject it.

...

The last thing I want is for the camera to be changing ISO when I'm in manual mode, because that would be working against my purpose for being in that mode in the first place. Most likely, I would refuse to purchase a camera that implements manual mode the way you suggested!
I know I just said I wouldn't say anything more, but I have a possibly productive question: Could you detail exactly what controls you manipulate on the camera, what result you get, and what result you think my changes would give you instead? This would help me understand where your understanding differs from mine I hope. (Because I'm still sure that the camera you have could have worked the way I want since you got it and you would never have noticed.)
10-16-2015, 05:21 PM   #1102
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Sign off: just lost the intrigue of the earlier thread!
10-16-2015, 06:03 PM - 1 Like   #1103
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
Or possibly I'm insane. I'm starting to worry.
What you are proposing makes 100% sense.

The people not getting it do not seem to understand that all they have to do to get the behaviour they want is to not press the AE-L button. What is so hard about that?

The currently supported locking between aperture and shutter speed control (after pressing the AE-L button in M mode) is extremely useful in flash photography as it allows one to change the impact of the flash without changing the ambient exposure, i.e., one gets to control the exposure balance between subject and background by only turning one wheel instead of two.

To extend this convenience -- that still keeps all control manual, excluding any camera decisions -- to also work when one changes the ISO setting, is completely natural and will not affect anyone provided they manage to not press the AE-L button.

I believe the absence of what you propose is probably just an oversight or born out of not considering the current green button behaviour and hence judging it to be too complicated to address the question of which parameter should change to compensate for a change in the ISO setting.

I would like to make a further proposal and suggest to extend the choices for the green button behaviour with "ISO shift". Currently, the green button in manual enables a temporary Av, Tv, or P mode and it would be great if it also supported a temporary TAv mode.

10-16-2015, 07:28 PM   #1104
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
I know I just said I wouldn't say anything more, but I have a possibly productive question: Could you detail exactly what controls you manipulate on the camera, what result you get, and what result you think my changes would give you instead? This would help me understand where your understanding differs from mine I hope. (Because I'm still sure that the camera you have could have worked the way I want since you got it and you would never have noticed.)
I said I would say no more. Sticking mostly to that promise, I refer you back to your original complaint and my original response. I believe the "bug" you started off with is normal and expect-able behavior.

added: "Manual" should mean just that - nothing automated / behavior must not be changed by any other button, switch, etc.

Last edited by reh321; 10-16-2015 at 08:47 PM.
10-16-2015, 07:56 PM   #1105
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
So why do you want shutter speed to change when you change ISO? Why not aperture? Why not a combination of shutter speed and aperture (which already exists as Sv mode)? No matter as you're still asking the AE-L button to do something it was never intended for.
bringing the ae-l button/function into the equation just confused the issue, but the rest of it could all be programmed into firmware, and assigned to any dial or button.

one push of the button changes shutter by a stop, while at the same time changing either aperture or iso a stop in the other direction, altering the flash power, etc.

not sure that i'd have any reason for using it, but...
10-16-2015, 08:01 PM   #1106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
What you are proposing makes 100% sense.
Ditto.

If in a manual mode, the exposure lock button is pressed and then one of the three (aperture, iso, shutter) is adjusted, the exposure lock should simultaneously adjust another of the three to keep the exposure locked. Why shouldn't we be able to pick which of the three is adjusted?

Menus options for exposure lock in manual:
When e.l. button is pressed and...
... aperture changed, adjust 'shutter' or 'iso'?
... shutter changed, adjust 'aperture' or 'iso'?
... iso changed, adjust 'shutter' or 'aperture'?

There. Three simple choices for people to customise their camera's behaviour as they wish.
10-16-2015, 11:00 PM   #1107
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There seems to many users that don't understand what Pentax Hyper-manual mode is.
The Hyper-Manual functionality was something Pentax introduced on Z-1 some 25 years ago.

I agree with drougge (and other users) that want the functionality of Hyper-Manual mode to be expanded with ISO setting, as it is now variable on digital cameras.

Those that don't understand the Hyper-Manual mode might want to see this video for a quick overview of it.
10-17-2015, 12:02 AM - 1 Like   #1108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Those that don't understand the Hyper-Manual mode might want to see this video for a quick overview of it.
Or study these images:



10-17-2015, 07:15 AM   #1109
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I think the reason for the way Hyper Program and Hyper Manual work as they do is because they were born on SLRs, not DSLRs. On a film camera, ISO is fixed so the button and wheel adjustments only apply to aperture and shutter. Asking Ricoh to redesign the whole system to add ISO as a variable sounds like a quite complex project to meet the wishes of a small number of users (IMHO).
10-17-2015, 07:25 AM   #1110
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Asking Ricoh to redesign the whole system to add ISO as a variable sounds like a quite complex project to meet the wishes of a small number of users (IMHO).
The task isn't complex at all, the functionality could be implemented in a very short amount of time.

As long as it is missing, the number of respective users will always be "small".
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