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07-06-2015, 04:13 PM   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I'm hoping that is the price with a 2 lens kit
If the '2 lens kit' with the body includes the DFA 150-450 + the DFA 70-200, the price seems reasonable

But seriously, Canon 5D S/R pricing locally is about AUD $5000, Nikon D810 is about AUD $3300. If the Pentax FF is priced in the neighbourhood of the 5D S/R, I think they should expect very slow sales here.

But then again, the Sony A7 RII is being released here with an initial price of AUD $4400... Maybe if the Pentax FF has the same sensor, $4000+ for the Pentax FF might be the cost of using the latest and greatest sensor.

07-06-2015, 05:00 PM   #242
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Could be.. 5000.. 3300.. at those prices its out of my league too. And those D810s aren't getting any newer.. I mean the prices are only going to diminish more over time..

A gently used D750 or even D610 maybe look more appealing to bargain basement hunters like me.. esp since I'd pretty much have to start from scratch with lenses anyways. I like the Pentax build and layout so heres to hoping they find a happy balance between cost and featureset. I used my Dad's D3100 over the weekend and it took me a moment to figure out where everything is haha. It is laid out with a bit less menu diving for some features.. but wow the layout as a whole is all over the place.

With Pentax, the layout seems much more logical and orderly.. and I don't think it is simply due to me using Pentax digital bodies for 5 years now.. the layout alone is a pretty nice feature for Pentax.
07-06-2015, 05:54 PM   #243
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
A gently used D750 or even D610 maybe look more appealing to bargain basement hunters like me.. esp since I'd pretty much have to start from scratch with lenses anyways.
I believe the first FF will be high-end and high-priced. High-res stills on a tripod seems about right for Pentax.

But, IF the FF is a success I suspect there will be a mid-range and entry versions later, and the APSc flagship will hold the $999 price point. the K-S2-style bodies will be the next step down and another K-S1 experiment will slot below that.

Last edited by monochrome; 07-06-2015 at 06:01 PM.
07-06-2015, 07:06 PM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I believe the first FF will be high-end and high-priced. High-res stills on a tripod seems about right for Pentax.

But, IF the FF is a success I suspect there will be a mid-range and entry versions later, and the APSc flagship will hold the $999 price point. the K-S2-style bodies will be the next step down and another K-S1 experiment will slot below that.
I doubt we get more than one FF body at a time.. I mean just one 'live' body.. much like in MF where when the Z was released, the D was discontinued.


And, actually, the quoted/guesstimated pricing on this FF body are within the range of a 645D! There are a lot more options when you get into that price range it seems..

07-06-2015, 07:42 PM   #245
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If it is targetting a broader market, I think a low-profile brand like Pentax needs to choose it's pricing point for the FF very carefully. Canon and Nikon are established FF brands, and without too much effort can already sell new high-end bodies to many FF users with a stake in those brands as upgrades (D700>D800>D810, D4>D4s, 5D2>5D3>5DS etc). A high-end, top-priced Pentax FF will kind of stand alone, so it needs to disrupt, either by offering amazing 'must-have' features, or aggressive pricing (like the 645Z vs other digital MF).

If the Pentax FF is $4000, and the K-3 II is $1000 or less, the 'steps' in the upgrade ladder for Pentax users may be too far apart for most APS-C upgraders.
07-06-2015, 07:48 PM   #246
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Based on a quote of 3900 with a 2 lens kit (probably the 24-70 that hasn't been announced and the 70-200) then that would make a 2k body alone.
07-06-2015, 07:56 PM   #247
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Are you sure the text did not just mean that 2 lenses would be released at the same time, not as part of a kit?
07-06-2015, 08:09 PM - 1 Like   #248
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Wouldn't make sense for a starter kit to use a body that cost 4k along with stand alone lenses that run another 2k for the 70-200 and probably another 1500 for the 24-70. Now add the 150-450 and 1.4 aw TC. That would put your entry price at 645z pricing, and well above 645d pricing. Sure, the 645d is old tech, but it is medium format, and some would go that way or venture into Nikon land.

07-06-2015, 10:37 PM - 1 Like   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
Based on a quote of 3900 with a 2 lens kit (probably the 24-70 that hasn't been announced and the 70-200) then that would make a 2k body alone.
There is no quote. Just some random guy on a photo forum complaining that Pentax FF is priced same as the Canon.

There is no implication that body and two lenses are offered at a kit price. The comment about body and two lenses being released on the same date, and the comment about the cost of Pentax FF were made in two separate posts by different posters. No justification whatsoever to tie the two together.
07-07-2015, 12:17 AM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I believe the first FF will be high-end and high-priced. High-res stills on a tripod seems about right for Pentax.

But, IF the FF is a success I suspect there will be a mid-range and entry versions later, and the APSc flagship will hold the $999 price point. the K-S2-style bodies will be the next step down and another K-S1 experiment will slot below that.
It seems to me you are right. The camera will have new type of AF system and maybe unique features.
3500-3900 USD could be real price for high-end machine.

I think that the strategy will be in such way - high-end APS-C will be not expensive, but FF will be high-end camera with not low price.
Cheaper FF will be later.

K-3II is already could be bought for 1000 USD and even cheaper.

---------- Post added 07-07-2015 at 12:19 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
Based on a quote of 3900 with a 2 lens kit (probably the 24-70 that hasn't been announced and the 70-200) then that would make a 2k body alone.
No any quote. And no any indication about price of kit set. Just about price of body. 24-70 + 70-200 won't be lower than 4000 USD.

---------- Post added 07-07-2015 at 12:20 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
There is no quote. Just some random guy on a photo forum complaining that Pentax FF is priced same as the Canon.

There is no implication that body and two lenses are offered at a kit price. The comment about body and two lenses being released on the same date, and the comment about the cost of Pentax FF were made in two separate posts by different posters. No justification whatsoever to tie the two together.
+100...

---------- Post added 07-07-2015 at 12:22 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by enoeske Quote
That seems like a good deal with 2 HD lenses included.
No any HD lenses included. The guy said about price of body close to the price of Canon 5Dsr. And nothing else.
07-07-2015, 01:01 AM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I believe the first FF will be high -end and high-priced.
If the first FF will be high-end and high-priced, it will also be high on the list of cameras that don't sell well.

Between the pricing of the FF zooms and a high-price body one would have to wonder why they bothered to develop an FF offering at all, as it wouldn't represent competition to what already exists.

No one will choose a camera system because it offers high-resolution for still scences when using a tripod and I don't see Pentax overtaking Canikon on AF, PR, professional services, availability, lens offerings, etc. in the near future.

In other words, I think Pentax would be ill-advised to price their first FF model into the stratosphere.
07-07-2015, 01:20 AM - 1 Like   #252
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It says it self, that the first FF will be more expensive then what pentaxians are used to with other cameras. Not only because its a FF, but i've said it before; Pentax/Ricoh aims for the pro-marked firstly. There will most certainly come more FF's at a later stage. They need to be seen in the pro-marked (one of the reasons I got signed) to sell more in the "normal" marked. This doesn't mean that everybody can't buy the first FF. Of course everyone can, but just bar in mind, that the pros are what they are aiming for now. So dont expect the cheapest FF on the marked when it arrives. Sorry! But with Pentax, you'll still get more for your money then with CaNikon.
07-07-2015, 02:36 AM   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
It says it self, that the first FF will be more expensive then what pentaxians are used to with other cameras.
You are making loose faith, to be honest.

I don't mind paying a fair price for a high-end camera, but Pentax is not Leica, neither by reputation nor by quality.

Affordable FF cameras have been existing for years already and the used-market will see more of the excellent current FF models at very attractive prices. Why would anyone wanting an FF stay with Pentax if they after over a decade of delay introduce an FF model that will only appeal to a very low number of shooters?

Even a very well-specced Pentax FF that perhaps has one nice new feature that we don't know of, will be very easily be dismissed by review sites like DPReview if the price isn't competitive. DPReview will use a high price against the camera and will again use the comment "Potentially a good upgrade for someone already using Pentax but not attractive enough for anyone to switch systems". Findings like these will be much more important than some professionals using Pentax.

QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Not only because its a FF, but i've said it before; Pentax/Ricoh aims for the pro-marked firstly.
I see three problems with this:
  1. Which prominent pro is going to swap their system to Pentax given that
    • most are on the PR payroll of some manufacturer already,
    • the professional support network does not exist,
    • the lens offerings are not competitive with Canikon, and
    • the Pentax flash system is hopelessly outdated?
  2. Pentaxians (or people that are inclined to become Pentaxians) are not sheep. Pentaxians do not blindly follow what other people do. The "I'll get what the pros have" strategy does not work with (potential) Pentaxians. Now that still leaves non-Pentaxians to become Pentaxians, if -- and that's a big IF -- Pentax manages to attract some high-impact pros, but why would those non-Pentaxians choose Pentax over Canikon if Pentax adopts Canikon pricing?
  3. If pros indeed start using Pentax, then someone needs to tell the world about it. Given Pentax's advertising history, I am highly sceptical that they could actually capitalise on pros making the choice for Pentax.
BTW, one of the Pentax officials announced the FF model as a token of appreciation for existing Pentaxians. Pentax finally realised that they are bleeding high-end users to Canikon and wanted to finally give existing Pentaxians a reason to stay with Pentax. They won't achieve that by releasing a high-priced model intended for pros only.

QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
There will most certainly come more FF's at a later stage.
I doubt it, if they make the later FFs dependent on the success of the first one.

QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
But with Pentax, you'll still get more for your money then with CaNikon.
Currently that's true because the bodies still provide great value for money.

The lenses, however, have become rather pricey over the years and often don't offer respective performance, with Pentax not passing on savings they should have by not needing to implement optical stabilisation and advanced AF ring motors.

If Pentax prices their FF model with the same value for money ratio one knows from top Canikon models, I'll have to disagree with the notion that you get more for your money.

Now, perhaps Ricoh has the perfect long-term plan and a strategy like the one you indicated could work with a lot of commitment, financial investment, and patience. Ricoh's approach to advertising, distributors and service centres would have to radically change though. It would be possible, but seems rather unlikely given current market dynamics.

I'm still hoping that Pentax will offer an FF model that will provide great value for money, continuing their tradition and strength. If they don't then it seems a real FF release seems much further away than we all thought, if it happens at all.

Last edited by Class A; 07-12-2015 at 02:43 AM.
07-07-2015, 02:45 AM - 3 Likes   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
If the first FF will be high-end and high-priced, it will also be high on the list of cameras that don't sell well.

Between the pricing of the FF zooms and a high-price body one would have to wonder why they bothered to develop an FF offering at all, as it wouldn't represent competition to what already exists.

No one will choose a camera system because it offers high-resolution for still scences when using a tripod and I don't see Pentax overtaking Canikon on AF, PR, professional services, availability, lens offerings, etc. in the near future.

In other words, I think Pentax would be ill-advised to price their first FF model into the stratosphere.
I go kind of on the same direction... having an expensive FF at first will be to risky. TOO risky.. if this FF doesnt sell well could mean the end of Ricoh FF adventure... and as Class A said.. who on earth will choose a system with fewer lenses, not having profesional services around the world, some primitive flash system.. slower AF.. and 0 FF market at this time?? it just doesnt make sense... A good FF with nice features around $2300 - $2500 is good enough for the first release.. THEN.. when people see what Pentax FF can do, when they have MORE available lenses, more service centers, and they builed a FF reputation.. and a users base... then.. and only then.. the company could think of releasing an expensive FF ( lets say something around the $3500+/- )..

For example, lets say that you are a Pro shooter.. and you use for example a Nikon lets say a D810.. you already have good glasses, the flashes, the accesories, and you already delivere some great images, and you are happy with it.... What will make you move to Pentax?? price?? glasses?? image quality?? service?? conectivity? .. nothing... On the other hand. you have a bunch of Pentax users that shoot APS-C and are ungry to shoot FF.. will they buy a $3500 camera body as their first FF?? eeehhmm NO.. thats like driving a Toyota Corolla and wanting them to buy a brand new Toyota ( that no body have ever tried ) and that cost like 4 times the car that you already have..... perhaps just a few will go for it, but not too many.. and i really dont think that Ricoh will develop a FF system to please just a few.. MANY of this shooters will become Pros, step by step.. and THERE IS where the Pentax Pro market could be, but it will take time to build it, is not going to happen within 1 year or so..

Perhaps somebody could explain me how the Pentax FF will make switching brands to people that is already shooting with pro equipment? .. they will have to sell all their equipment, invest MORE money, learn and get used to the new system, etc, etc, etc.. to delivere images that they were already delivering.. .. something is wrong with that equation..
07-07-2015, 02:59 AM   #255
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I think the first DFA lenses are a strong hint of what's coming first. It looks like a full set of pricy f2.8 zooms is first, which implies a pricy pro body. This makes sense to me because Ricoh can't hope to be first. They can't hope to be cheapest with all the used Canikons available. They can't hope to be the most readily available either because of their retail position. What they can do is make sure their product turns heads because it is best. That means something aimed at the high end of the FF market.

But of course they will also need an affordable body to support a full set of lenses. If this is something as simple as a FF K-3, it would be very useful camera but really easy for them to develop. I think the difficulty of making the camera itself has really been overstated. It was never a problem for Pentax or Hoya or Ricoh to make a FF camera. The problem was to do everything required to make a comprehensive FF system. In my opinion, if they release one, they will release another cheaper one very soon. And I don't think they'll be waiting for the sales figures of the high end body to validate the idea of a simple one.

Another reason to expect a cheaper FF is that a Ricoh manager was interviewed late last year in a Japanese magazine, a couple of months before the CP+ announcement. One of the comments he made, was (heavily paraphrased, and from memory) "It wouldn't be worth doing a FF camera if we couldn't do it for 200,000 yen." So I think 200,000 is a target price point for one of their bodies.
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