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07-07-2015, 03:00 AM   #256
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The FF really shouldn't cost more than the D750. 5D MK III (maybe IV by that time). If it is many current users will make a choice, and that choice will likely be something starting with A and ending with 7. Ricoh will need a lot more fire power to enter the pro arena. Better to start from below in order not to alienate it's user base, than to go up against de D810 (successor?) and the 5Ds (stupid camera anyway).

07-07-2015, 03:01 AM   #257
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I think it is pretty early to know what the price is going to be. My guess would still be in the mid 2000 dollar range for the body alone. I don't see how they can price it significantly more than the D810, unless it really has a feature set that is significantly better than other cameras on the market.

Probably best thing right now is to wait and see. Certainly if the body alone sells for 3500, it won't be a huge seller.
07-07-2015, 03:09 AM   #258
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I wonder for the ones that say that the new FF will be better than Canikons.. lets say that for example it is.. the Pentax FF kick asses.. it kick D810s ass.. and the 5Dmk3s.. and because of that, they think that the "pros" will pick the brand.. HOW LONG.. do you guys think that this "best camera" title will last?? Do you guys think that Canikons will stay with the arms crossed wathing the show?? Hell no.. they will release new bodys to keep costumers with in just a few months.. so NO. having a camera full of great spects is not a warranty that this will attract more people.. not in an industry where companies are releaseing new products and technology changes really fast..
07-07-2015, 03:11 AM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
I go kind of on the same direction... having an expensive FF at first will be to risky. TOO risky.. if this FF doesnt sell well could mean the end of Ricoh FF adventure... and as Class A said.. who on earth will choose a system with fewer lenses, not having profesional services around the world, some primitive flash system.. slower AF.. and 0 FF market at this time?? it just doesnt make sense... A good FF with nice features around $2300 - $2500 is good enough for the first release.. THEN.. when people see what Pentax FF can do, when they have MORE available lenses, more service centers, and they builed a FF reputation.. and a users base... then.. and only then.. the company could think of releasing an expensive FF ( lets say something around the $3500+/- )..

For example, lets say that you are a Pro shooter.. and you use for example a Nikon lets say a D810.. you already have good glasses, the flashes, the accesories, and you already delivere some great images, and you are happy with it.... What will make you move to Pentax?? price?? glasses?? image quality?? service?? conectivity? .. nothing... On the other hand. you have a bunch of Pentax users that shoot APS-C and are ungry to shoot FF.. will they buy a $3500 camera body as their first FF?? eeehhmm NO.. thats like driving a Toyota Corolla and wanting them to buy a brand new Toyota ( that no body have ever tried ) and that cost like 4 times the car that you already have..... perhaps just a few will go for it, but not too many.. and i really dont think that Ricoh will develop a FF system to please just a few.. MANY of this shooters will become Pros, step by step.. and THERE IS where the Pentax Pro market could be, but it will take time to build it, is not going to happen within 1 year or so..

Perhaps somebody could explain me how the Pentax FF will make switching brands to people that is already shooting with pro equipment? .. they will have to sell all their equipment, invest MORE money, learn and get used to the new system, etc, etc, etc.. to delivere images that they were already delivering.. .. something is wrong with that equation..
All interesting thoughts, probably most of it with a good point, however...
Pentax currently is offering two ways of using the system professionally, either walking the APS-C line to its current top or riding the 645 train. The success of the 645 showed that it's not necessary to sell on volume but price a solid product competitively and still profitable. I don't think a top-notch FF is targeted solely to upgraders from APS-C, as you pointed out those who were in the need for a FF-system probably already have one, but also to professionals using 645 as a lightweight and especially faster but still compatible addition. Obviously it's not the massmarket that this might be targeted for, thus the success of this first model might not be evaluated solely with numbers of sold bodies but also seen as an investment in a complete ecosystem and the rise of attractiveness of the whole camerasystem, below with FF lenses sold to APS-C users ( not buying first model but potential fillow ups) or professional from the top.

07-07-2015, 03:26 AM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Perhaps somebody could explain me how the Pentax FF will make switching brands to people that is already shooting with pro equipment?
Exactly.

Worse, an over-priced FF body will not only be unfit to convert anyone to Pentax, it also carries the high-risk of alienating current Pentaxians. Many former Pentaxians have already moved on to other FF solutions and I believe it is rather likely that a reasonable proportion of those still being loyal will conclude that Ricoh does not have them in mind as their future target market, if they now price their FF body out of reach for enthusiasts.
07-07-2015, 03:26 AM - 1 Like   #261
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I feel the 1st FF release really has to catch the hearts and minds of existing Pentax users, and be reasonably aspirational and affordable to them....say 2-2.5x the price top APSC model at most. I don't feel I'd respond well to having to wait again for a second tier FF.....I'd just go a A7II and be done with it (as a hobbiest with a K3). Quite tricky for Pentax to pull this of I reckon.....hope they do for sure though!
07-07-2015, 03:30 AM   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
All interesting thoughts, probably most of it with a good point, however...
Pentax currently is offering two ways of using the system professionally, either walking the APS-C line to its current top or riding the 645 train. The success of the 645 showed that it's not necessary to sell on volume but price a solid product competitively and still profitable. I don't think a top-notch FF is targeted solely to upgraders from APS-C, as you pointed out those who were in the need for a FF-system probably already have one, but also to professionals using 645 as a lightweight and especially faster but still compatible addition. Obviously it's not the massmarket that this might be targeted for, thus the success of this first model might not be evaluated solely with numbers of sold bodies but also seen as an investment in a complete ecosystem and the rise of attractiveness of the whole camerasystem, below with FF lenses sold to APS-C users ( not buying first model but potential fillow ups) or professional from the top.
This is quite true. However, if you look at current full frame offerings from Canon and Nikon, the 5d MK III and D810 are both priced right around 3000. The NEX A7r II is going to be priced in the same ball park as well. It feels to me like this is the market segment that Pentax is targeting and even adding a few extra features over those cameras I mentioned, it is unlikely they could price their new body over where those are priced at.

If they were releasing a true sport body like the D4s or 1D series, then a little higher price would be in line, but the rumors of the high megapixel sensor make this quite unlikely.
07-07-2015, 03:37 AM - 1 Like   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
The success of the 645 showed that it's not necessary to sell on volume but price a solid product competitively and still profitable.
Yes, but you are quite right with "...price a solid product competitively...".

Let's not forget that the 645's success is based on a significantly better value for money ratio compared to other medium-format DSLRs. If Pentax had offered a 645D with Hasselblad pricing, aiming at the pros first, then it would not have been a success.

07-07-2015, 04:09 AM - 1 Like   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by noelpolar Quote
I feel the 1st FF release really has to catch the hearts and minds of existing Pentax users, and be reasonably aspirational and affordable to them....say 2-2.5x the price top APSC model at most. I don't feel I'd respond well to having to wait again for a second tier FF.....I'd just go a A7II and be done with it (as a hobbiest with a K3). Quite tricky for Pentax to pull this of I reckon.....hope they do for sure though!
Yes, that puts the dilemma very neatly. If Ricoh price any new camera too highly they will simply risk an exodus to Sony and Nikon among the higher-spending APS-C customers who'd like to move to FF which is the last thing they'd want, one would think. Those customers who leave won't return even if Ricoh subsequently introduce a low- or mid-priced FF in future years, and they are the customers who buy the lion's share of all those nice lenses. It's a very tricky one. Pentax's natural territory would be a camera similar to the D810 (or the D750) but feature-rich (i.e. no deliberately omitted features), full 14-bit lossless RAW, a few specials like IBIS and pixel shift, and at a similar but still slightly lower price. I don't think they have a huge amount of time, either. The appeal of cameras like the D750 or A7II is clearly spreading far and wide among other brands and pulling custom away, and not just from Pentax. Canon, Fuji et al must be taking hits, too.
07-07-2015, 05:01 AM   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
This is quite true. However, if you look at current full frame offerings from Canon and Nikon, the 5d MK III and D810 are both priced right around 3000. The NEX A7r II is going to be priced in the same ball park as well. It feels to me like this is the market segment that Pentax is targeting and even adding a few extra features over those cameras I mentioned, it is unlikely they could price their new body over where those are priced at.

If they were releasing a true sport body like the D4s or 1D series, then a little higher price would be in line, but the rumors of the high megapixel sensor make this quite unlikely.
But there quite affordables FF too like D610, A7 or 6D... And users can also buy used if they like to for even lower prices. Many are convince an FF is better because it is FF. So many would buy a K3 FF with maybe a slower shutter speed for D610 prices. Hey that's exactly what Nikon did an their success would have been far better if D600 hadn't the oil on sensor issue.

If Pentax target the high end market, they will get a small part of pros and a small part of amators too. And they have to have really good arguments to convince anybody it is worth the difference.

The feature, and it would be better to be several feature has to be really a key selling point to convince other to switch and difficult to be reproduced by Nikon/Canon. 645Z did it because neither Nikon or Canon want to invest on MF and other MF player can't afford to sell MF bodies as such a bargain.

To me, this is not pixel shift or optionnal low pass filter. it is not usefull enough. It can be in body SR but Sony has it and while good it would not make the Pentax that truely unique. It would need even more to me like an hybrid viewfinder with translucid miror and SR and pixel shift. This would be enough of a game changer.

But even, you'd to have a low end version soon to get volume and to have some affordable FF zoom in the line too. A 24-105 f/4, a 28-85 f/3.5-5.6, a 70-300 f/3.5-5.6... And some more affordable modern FF primes.
07-07-2015, 05:26 AM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
All interesting thoughts, probably most of it with a good point, however...
Pentax currently is offering two ways of using the system professionally, either walking the APS-C line to its current top or riding the 645 train. The success of the 645 showed that it's not necessary to sell on volume but price a solid product competitively and still profitable. I don't think a top-notch FF is targeted solely to upgraders from APS-C, as you pointed out those who were in the need for a FF-system probably already have one, but also to professionals using 645 as a lightweight and especially faster but still compatible addition. Obviously it's not the massmarket that this might be targeted for, thus the success of this first model might not be evaluated solely with numbers of sold bodies but also seen as an investment in a complete ecosystem and the rise of attractiveness of the whole camerasystem, below with FF lenses sold to APS-C users ( not buying first model but potential fillow ups) or professional from the top.
+1000 and also with kenspo.
And sorry for the whishfull thoughts praying for a low cost body.
It shall come, but later.
Ricoh is probably building up a very close strategy for FF as it has build on digital 645, with a different target and in two steps : first for "enthusiasts" and "pros" subcategories "wedding" and "sports + wildlife" ; second for more "mass-market" users.
That seems more relevant in terms of image and marketing.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 07-07-2015 at 05:34 AM.
07-07-2015, 06:12 AM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by noelpolar Quote
I feel the 1st FF release really has to catch the hearts and minds of existing Pentax users, and be reasonably aspirational and affordable to them....say 2-2.5x the price top APSC model at most. I don't feel I'd respond well to having to wait again for a second tier FF.....I'd just go a A7II and be done with it (as a hobbiest with a K3). Quite tricky for Pentax to pull this of I reckon.....hope they do for sure though!
That's exactly how I feel.

They made me decide to go for a FF by the end of the year and I'll get one, if the pentax is too much above 3k€ it'll be a Sony.

Last edited by Glorfindelrb; 07-07-2015 at 06:39 AM.
07-07-2015, 07:24 AM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by noelpolar Quote
I feel the 1st FF release really has to catch the hearts and minds of existing Pentax users,
I hope Ricoh are able to absorb this rather important point. I hope Ricoh doesn't make it too hard for existing Pentax users to like and adopt the FF.

Every existing Pentax user is already a sympathetic customer, and every current user who upgrades is also a potential 'Pentax FF Ambassador' (who you don't have to pay ).
07-07-2015, 07:34 AM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I hope Ricoh are able to absorb this rather important point. I hope Ricoh doesn't make it too hard for existing Pentax users to like and adopt the FF.

Every existing Pentax user is already a sympathetic customer, and every current user who upgrades is also a potential 'Pentax FF Ambassador' (who you don't have to pay ).
Capture the hearts and minds of existing Pentax users all you want.. if it doesn't capture a lot of their wallets too it is a problem....
07-07-2015, 07:48 AM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Capture the hearts and minds of existing Pentax users all you want ... if it doesn't capture a lot of their wallets too it is a problem....
One often leads to another.
That's no secret in business - or personal life
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