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07-07-2015, 08:38 AM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
thats like driving a Toyota Corolla and wanting them to buy a brand new Toyota ( that no body have ever tried ) and that cost like 4 times the car that you already have..... perhaps just a few will go for it, but not too many.. and i really dont think that Ricoh will develop a FF system to please just a few.. MANY of this shooters will become Pros, step by step.. and THERE IS where the Pentax Pro market could be, but it will take time to build it, is not going to happen within 1 year or so..


Well, that did happen, it's called a Lexus, and they sold like hotcakes.

Eric

07-07-2015, 09:56 AM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
+1000 and also with kenspo.
Ricoh is probably building up a very close strategy for FF as it has build on digital 645, with a different target and in two steps : first for "enthusiasts" and "pros" subcategories "wedding" and "sports + wildlife" ; second for more "mass-market" users.
That seems more relevant in terms of image and marketing.
The problem with this strategy is.. TIME.. how long will Ricoh keep handling the leak of more and more people that want a FF that can afford ( like D610s, 6D's, or A7's for example ).. The ones that had the money to switch already did it.. they are already shooting with D810s or 5Ds.. But the ones that are truly wanting a pentax FF are the ones that perhaps didnt have the money tomake the change. Im not saying that Pentax needs to release a $1600 body like the D610,, but something around the $2300 and $2500 price i think is fair enough for a good body i think. Some people also said that Ricoh ischanging how Pentaxians handle prices.. if that is true.. Why the K3ii is now costing $950?? K3 around $600 .. and K50 around $300 ... that seems to me that is a strategy of lowing the prices and delivering great equipment.. why will they change this with an upcoming FF?? it doenst make sense.
07-07-2015, 10:03 AM   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I hope Ricoh are able to absorb this rather important point. I hope Ricoh doesn't make it too hard for existing Pentax users to like and adopt the FF.

Every existing Pentax user is already a sympathetic customer, and every current user who upgrades is also a potential 'Pentax FF Ambassador' (who you don't have to pay ).
In theory at least, Pentax has a roll of the Dedicated Pentax users - the registration database at Ricoh. If they chose to offer all of those people a discount, I'd be willing to listen - and they could even contact former users who registered dSLRs in the past five years or so, bringing a nice goodwill gesture to Those Who Left

Last edited by jimr-pdx; 07-07-2015 at 10:08 AM.
07-07-2015, 10:03 AM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
Well, that did happen, it's called a Lexus, and they sold like hotcakes.

Eric

mmmmmm not really.. Lexus is aimed to a totally different market than Toyota Corolla users.. as same as Mercedes, or BMW.. or Audi... but you cant make a Corolla user to buy a brand new Audi just because.. The dilema ( and what i dont get ) is how will Pentax aim for pros if most of them are al ready shooting with great cameras?? what will make the difference tomake them sell ALL their equipment and invest in something else that to be honest, no body really knows how is going to be

I think that part of the success of the A7 series is that the base A7 was the first to be relesed, at really attractive price.. that created a user base, people that talked ar forums, pages that wrote great reviews, etc, etc.. this people liked the way this camera behaved and when the other models were released they wanted them, and other people that got impressed with this camera performances wanted the new models too.. and so on..

Another thing is .. dont really remember the words.. but i believe that just before CP+ or during CP+, Ricoh reps did an interview to this forum ( i think it was this forum. or not?? ) .. and they kind of said that they wanted this camera to be the camera that all their pentax users wanted for a long time... and perhaps recover some that left (perhaps used another words but i think that the main idea was that). We all know that because of the lack of FF Pentax dont have that many pro shooters ( perhaps some 645Z but thats another story ).. so how can they aim this first release to $3000 + market if this market doesnt even exist within the Pentax share.. on the other hands it totally make sense to release a camera that is really nice, and have a great price... Kind of what they did with the 645 system.. a great camera with a price that none Hassy, or Phase or any other could compete.. there is the success. By having a bigger share of the market they will be able to sell more lenses and accesories too.


Last edited by kooks; 07-07-2015 at 10:38 AM.
07-07-2015, 10:35 AM   #275
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None of the above opinion matters a whit. They're making a pro-spec D810 competitor with a wrinkle or two and pricing it in the upper $2000 range (value for money, not inexpensive), not a D750 or D610. The lenses are best-in-breed and priced accordingly. Lower priced but still good value FF equipment comes a bit later.
07-07-2015, 10:48 AM   #276
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without an obf...
07-07-2015, 10:53 AM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
None of the above opinion matters a whit. They're making a pro-spec D810 competitor with a wrinkle or two and pricing it in the upper $2000 range (value for money, not inexpensive), not a D750 or D610.
Well.. that is something that no body know for a fact at this time. Perhaps it is.. perhaps is not.. we will see.. I just hope that is something that will be really attractive to the existing Pentax users, because if is not mmmmm the FF adventure could be short.
07-07-2015, 10:56 AM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
if is not mmmmm the FF adventure could be short.
It'll drop in price pretty fast then

07-07-2015, 10:58 AM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
mmmmmm not really.. Lexus is aimed to a totally different market than Toyota Corolla users.. .

Corolla is a model, not the maker. People who can only afford a Corolla, do not shop for Camry, Avalon's or Lexus... unless they wait for a used one.


FF model may be aimed at a different market as well. If Toyota only made Corolla's, and people that only bought Corolla because that's all they had, but had the means to afford more, would be the target market for the new luxury model when they finally made one in the brand the consumer was loyal to.


Heck, I even bet there are people waiting for Ford to start making mini vans again, and putting up with Focus station wagons in the mean time. LOL!
Eric
07-07-2015, 11:12 AM   #280
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The lenses are best-in-breed and priced accordingly.
Oh, someone needs to tell Pentax that their 70-200/2.8 has 23 lens elements (not 19), one of which is a fluorite (instead of none), that it has a ultra-sonic ring motor (instead of DC), and two-mode, four-stop optical image stabilisation (instead of none), and that it only weighs 1.6kg (instead of 1.755kg).

Oh, and finally that it only costs $2,099.00 (instead of 2,296.95), that's $1999 with the current rebate.

Please, keep it real.
07-07-2015, 11:33 AM   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
People who can only afford a Corolla, do not shop for Camry, Avalon's or Lexus... unless they wait for a used one.
Exactly that is my point.. at this time.. i dont see pentax users as really high end spenders, Pentax users are not used to spend a big amount of money and most of all, pentax users are picky.. saying this i can not imagine a K5 user wanting to buy a brand new $3000+ camera.. actually perhaps not that many K3s will do it... as same as i dont expect a Corolla user to buy a brand new Lexus.. we gotta keep it real.. it will take some time for the brand to grow the market and get this kidn of users.

Basically what im saying is that aiming for people that is not within the brand could be a mistake... i think is better to aim for the people that already knwo the brand, LIKES the brand, and want to grow within the brand... I just can not see a D810 pro shooter wanting to sell all their equipement to use a brand that is just entering the market, not at the same cost $$.. why should they do it?? there is no point of doing it... Will for example Kenspo do it if he were shooting Nikon and didnt have sponsoring by Ricoh?? will he sell all his equipment to experiment with this new toy?? .. i think is hard to believe.. UNLESS, Ricoh sponsor a lot of pros ( like did with Kenspo ) and give them the camera and lenses for free so they can use them and show people what it can be done.. but once again.. will the other people sell all their gear and invest in something else?? and how long will Ricoh survive sponsoring a lot of pros without having profit from it??? thats the point..

Last edited by kooks; 07-07-2015 at 11:38 AM.
07-07-2015, 11:34 AM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Oh, someone needs to tell Pentax that their 70-200/2.8 has 23 lens elements (not 19), one of which is a fluorite (instead of none), that it has a ultra-sonic ring motor (instead of DC), and two-mode, four-stop optical image stabilisation (instead of none), and that it only weighs 1.6kg (instead of 1.755kg).
I get what you're saying -- but (assuming a camera with IBIS) the only one of those specifications that necessarily matters to the end result is the weight. I don't care how many elements a lens has or what they're made of, or what technology the focus motor uses, if the lens works and works well. And recall that some of those lens elements are presumably necessary for the stabilization mechanism and wouldn't be necessary here.

That having been said, I don't have really any sense yet as to whether this is a world-class lens or not. Maybe, maybe not.
07-07-2015, 12:02 PM   #283
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We all hope this so long awaited full frame will be as affordable as possible for most of existing pentax users, but the example of the new DFA's pricing have shown that this was no real idea.
Look at recent Nikon and Canon novelties : none is less expensive than what it replaces...
So, wait and see... I have no idea if i myself will afford it at launch.
07-07-2015, 12:05 PM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by Quicksand Quote
I get what you're saying -- but (assuming a camera with IBIS) the only one of those specifications that necessarily matters to the end result is the weight.
I agree with you in principle that in the end only performance matters and the construction details I mentioned are not important.

However,
  • One can expect an ultrasonic ring motor to be quicker and more robust than a DC motor.
  • The higher the number of lens elements, the better the optical quality usually is. Your point about IS requiring extra elements is taken, but I'm assuming that the overhead isn't that big as even the stabilising element(s) contribute to overall quality.
  • Special elements, e.g. made from fluorite, are expensive and again indicate high-performance that can otherwise not be obtained given certain parameters.
  • Image stabilisation helps with AF as well as framing. I prefer camera-based image stabilisation myself, but if it isn't in the lens then this should be reflected in a price advantage.
We certainly don't know yet how the Pentax 70-200/2.8 will perform, in particular as it is currently being improved as the first attempt did not hit the mark, but stating that it is "best-in-breed" justifying its price disadvantage over Canon's best is a bit of a long shot, to say the least.
07-07-2015, 12:08 PM - 1 Like   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Image stabilisation helps with AF as well as framing. I prefer camera-based image stabilisation myself, but if it isn't im the lens then this should be reflected in a price advantage.
Not to mention less weight!
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