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07-07-2015, 04:58 PM   #301
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I think they are moving on and targeting people who can and will buy a $3,500 camera.
What makes you think that?? the release of a couple of lenses that are around $2000 ?? that doesnt mean nothing.. one thing are the lenses and another thing are the bodies.. THEY NEED a lot of bodies out there in order to have potential lenses buyers, that is simple. More people shooting Pentax means more people that could eventually buy this expensive lenses. K3ii is supposed to be optimized to handle the new lenses, right??.. and how much does it cost?? $960.. even lower than what the original K3 cost when it came out.. is this what "targeting" another crowd means?? i dont think so..

I honestly dont think that they will release a cheap FF ( lets say $1600 ) .. but i dont think that they will commit suicide and release an expensive FF with out a totally full developed FF system.... $2300 could be a good number to start.. make some profit, grow their market, making happy current Pentax shooters, having good publicity at the forums and other reviews..perhaps even having some APS-C people using another brands to switch to pentax because of the attractive price and features... seems to me that is a win win strategy..

i dont really understand how will they market an expensive body in a FF market that is really small.. and even smaller the Pentax share.. Honestly will Pentax had succeed releasing the 645Z at a price similar to Hassy or PhaseOne ?? mmmm.. we dont know that.. what we know is that they succeed releasing this camera at a really afortable ( compared to the other brands) MF price.

07-07-2015, 05:13 PM   #302
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People who really know what this camera is going to be aren't talking about it and the actual release price is certainly under serious wraps right now.

Don't fret so much about it.

It is just gear and in the end we will all make decisions based on how the camera and lenses are priced and what we personally can afford and want/need. Before the actually release, arguing about something so unknown seems somewhat futile.

But what do I know? That's why this section of the forum exists, I suppose.
07-07-2015, 05:24 PM   #303
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
When the final lens is released I'll base my decision on actual performance metrics.
That's a good idea and an improvement to your earlier approach of declaring the lens to be "best-in-breed" with an appropriate price.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I hate the compulsive habit to dismiss whatever Pentax is about to do before anyone has actually seen it.
That makes two of us.

Do you also hate it when someone makes statements that have no basis in reality?
07-07-2015, 05:25 PM - 2 Likes   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
D750 ( or D610 ) pricing for D810 features and IQ - Pentax users will buy the camera in droves, as will new users.

D750 pricing for D750 features and IQ - no one will protest too much. Pentax users will buy, others will look seriously at the item.

D810 pricing for D750 features and IQ - Pentax users won't be happy. And non-Pentax users probably won't see any value in the Pentax FF relative to just buying a genuine D810 .

Such is the dilemma of Ricoh.
May I ask - did you deliberately leave out the most obvious possibilities: D810 features (eventually plus some) and D810 list price (eventually plus some).
You guys are demanding more on paper for less money and are just setting up everything for a disappointment.

07-07-2015, 05:33 PM   #305
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The picture is quite clear; It is going to sit in the line-up between the K-3 and the 645z. There's no way that it is going to be less capable than a K-3.
The FF lenses released so far are expensive. The ones on the roadmap will be too. As far as you can tell anything from the mock-up, there is nothing suggesting entry level or cheap.
Pentax doesn't have a complete line of FF lenses to make bodies for, but they do have the most complete APS lens line-ups. Pentax cheap is probably APS for the time being.
07-07-2015, 05:43 PM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm not sure why you're pining after a USM version;
I'm not.

Sure, it would be nice if a Pentax lens at that price point used state of the art technology but the type of AF motor used isn't terribly important for me as long as it is reliable.

I was merely responding to Monochrome's claim that the new Pentax FF prices can be defended on the basis that they are "best-in-breed".

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I didn't notice any significant difference between using a Q-mount and an EF-mount lens during that time when I had an operating body for each, so I have every reason to expect the DC lenses to be fine (right now, the only AF K-mount lenses I have are screw-drive).
You do know about the SDM issues, though?

Again, I don't expect the new 70-200/2.8 to create AF motor issues and I expect it to be optically great. If they could make it as good as the 50-135 that would be fantastic.

I'm just disappointed with the pricing as, unlike Pentax body prices, Pentax lens prices do not tend to decrease over time. The new FF lenses compare unfavourably against Canon's flagship lenses. The latter are not exactly bargain offerings but Canon can afford to charge those prices. I don't think Pentax can and I also don't think the market needs another brand that operates like Canikon.
07-07-2015, 05:44 PM   #307
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
What makes you think that??
Ricoh is not Pentax. Pentax had a reputation as a bargain brand. whether it intended that or not. Ricoh does not. Look at recent prices for all introductions. 16-85 for example. Cheap Pentax is no more, Ricoh intends to make money in the way they do in their other segments, one sale at a time. Anyway, you stated your opinion, I stated mine. Let's revisit this in December and see who is right.

QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
$2300 could be a good number to start.. make some profit, grow their market, making happy current Pentax shooters
I think you are $1,000 short on that number, at least for release price. But we will see in 6 months or so. All indications we have had from people who might actually know something is that this camera:
1) Will be aimed at the "professional" market
2) Will be more expensive than Pentax users are used to
3) Will use the latest technology available

If those are the stated parameters I don't see a release price under $3,300 or even $3,500.

I keep hearing that this camera is for the Pentax users with pent up demand. What if it is not? What if Ricoh has found and is going to target a completely different market?

What if as I said in my first post they do not care about the current user base but want to start over with a group willing to pay for a $3,500 camera?
07-07-2015, 05:56 PM   #308
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I keep hearing that this camera is for the Pentax users with pent up demand. What if it is not? What if Ricoh has found and is going to target a completely different market?

What if as I said in my first post they do not care about the current user base but want to start over with a group willing to pay for a $3,500 camera?
Except there's isn't necessarily any contradiction between pent-up demand, user base and those willing to pay $3000+ for an FF body.

---------- Post added 07-08-15 at 02:58 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote

I'm just disappointed with the pricing as, unlike Pentax body prices, Pentax lens prices do not tend to decrease over time. The new FF lenses compare unfavourably against Canon's flagship lenses. The latter are not exactly bargain offerings but Canon can afford to charge those prices. I don't think Pentax can and I also don't think the market needs another brand that operates like Canikon.
Is this another case of assuming prices are set arbitrarily? Pentax have to charge the prices they must in order to be profitable. I can't find anything wrong with the prices. I find them competitive.

07-07-2015, 06:00 PM   #309
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
May I ask - did you deliberately leave out the most obvious possibilities:
I thought of that as an after-thought, but didn't bother to add it.
But you are right - D810 is probably the most logical current reference body for the Pentax FF, both in terms of features and price.
07-07-2015, 06:14 PM   #310
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Ricoh is not Pentax. Pentax had a reputation as a bargain brand. whether it intended that or not. Ricoh does not.
IF this is correct.. why the K3ii only cost $960 just a couple of months after it was released?? and the K3 $630 ( or so ).. looks to me that people is assuming or wanting the brand to be expensive ( who knows why.. ) but the latest body releases and prices show the contrary.. Canon 7Dmk2 was release at around $1700.. so why Pentax K3ii wasnt release at least at $1500?? ..

I just cant see where is the market for pentax a $3000+ body.. not without a users base and with out good glass available. Im not saying that it wont happen.. im saing that not at this 1st release.. perhaps as a 2nd or 3rd... Did Sony start releasing the A7r or A7s ?? no.. they did it with the A7.. and lets not forget that one of the Sony head members is now part of Ricoh.. that could mean that the brand could follow this path. Releasing the base model and then the otherones.
07-07-2015, 06:20 PM - 1 Like   #311
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
I honestly dont think that they will release a cheap FF ( lets say $1600 ) .. but i dont think that they will commit suicide and release an expensive FF with out a totally full developed FF system.... $2300 could be a good number to start.. make some profit, grow their market, making happy current Pentax shooters, having good publicity at the forums and other reviews..perhaps even having some APS-C people using another brands to switch to pentax because of the attractive price and features... seems to me that is a win win strategy..

i dont really understand how will they market an expensive body in a FF market that is really small.. and even smaller the Pentax share.. Honestly will Pentax had succeed releasing the 645Z at a price similar to Hassy or PhaseOne ?? mmmm.. we dont know that.. what we know is that they succeed releasing this camera at a really afortable ( compared to the other brands) MF price.
1. Why should anyone switch to Pentax based on a cheap FF camera? Cameras that already exist from the competition? Do you really think Pentax can undercut their prices and make a profit? Not mention including features not present in the competition for free.
And are there any reason to expect that those FF buyers on a budget is going to buy a fleet of expensive new FF lenses?

2. Pentax can undercut the other MF manufacturers not because Pentax have reduced profit margins, but because they are a megacorporation compared to the competition, and doesn't have to share developing, manufacturing and marketing cost form selling 2000 bodies a year. No such luck in the FF market....
07-07-2015, 06:32 PM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
1. Why should anyone switch to Pentax based on a cheap FF camera? Cameras that already exist from the competition? Do you really think Pentax can undercut their prices and make a profit? Not mention including features not present in the competition for free.
And are there any reason to expect that those FF buyers on a budget is going to buy a fleet of expensive new FF lenses?

2. Pentax can undercut the other MF manufacturers not because Pentax have reduced profit margins, but because they are a megacorporation compared to the competition, and doesn't have to share developing, manufacturing and marketing cost form selling 2000 bodies a year. No such luck in the FF market....
Do you know the story of the OnePlus cell phone?? why they can offer a high end telephone that cost half of what Samsung or iPhone telephones cost?? well. this apply to the all technology market. Do you think that Apple makes $50 of profit with each iphone or ipad that they sell?? hell no.. they make a lot more...

I recommend you to watch this video and perhaps you can understand how a company can relase a great quality technology equipment at great prices.

07-07-2015, 06:34 PM   #313
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
One often leads to another.
That's no secret in business - or personal life
Not as often as it doesn't. Case in point.. every time one drives by the car lot and see the 6 or 7 figure luxury/sports cars out front..
07-07-2015, 06:42 PM   #314
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
I just cant see where is the market for pentax a $3000+ body.. not without a users base and with out good glass available. Im not saying that it wont happen.. im saing that not at this 1st release.. perhaps as a 2nd or 3rd...
Like I said, you stated your opinion, I stated mine. Neither of us has any real idea. Stop back in 6 months and we will see. I really hope the FF is $2,000 so I can buy it. At $3,000+ it is out of my price range and that is where I expect the price to be.

I'm so sure of it that I just used my saved FF money on a k-3II. As much as I would like a FF, I do not need it and cannot justify that price for my business.
QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Except there's isn't necessarily any contradiction between pent-up demand, user base and those willing to pay $3000+ for an FF body.
True, there will most certainly be many on this forum who will buy it at that price. My post was directed to those posters expecting a 'cheap', sub- $2,000 FF camera. I just do not see that happening. I honestly see no reason for RIcoh to bring out a FF at anything less than $3000+. I think they can keep the line running on sales at that price because their volume is relatively low and they are not playing the advertising game. They do not have to take over the world, all they have to do is sell enough to keep the line running and be profitable.
QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
why the K3ii only cost $960 just a couple of months after it was released?? and the K3 $630 ( or so )..
$935 actually. I don't think any comparison with k-3 is realistic, that camera is on clearance. And why? Because it is old tech already paid for, just milking the line for some extra profit before moving to the replacement body in 6 months.
Did you read this part?
1) Will be aimed at the "professional" market
2) Will be more expensive than Pentax users are used to
3) Will use the latest technology available
None of those apply to the k-3II so please do not bring straw man arguments into this. We are discussing FF not APS-C.


07-07-2015, 07:09 PM   #315
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
None of those apply to the k-3II so please do not bring straw man arguments into this. We are discussing FF not APS-C.
you are right.. we are not dicussing APS-C we are talking about FF.. but we are talking about the same Company.. and all this "change of stragety" just doesnt seems to be quite right. Ricoh is Ricoh from most basic models to the most expensive.

1) Will be aimed at the "professional" market

This could be totally right.. but we dont know for sure. I believe that Kenspo was the one that told us that this was aiming for that.. actually.. i cant recall if he was talking about the new lenses or the new FF. Because as i said.. this are 2 differnet things, related yes.. but different.

2) Will be more expensive than Pentax users are used to

Correct.. we can expect that any new FF camera will be more expensive that what pentax users are used to.. anything above $1400 could fit this.. I will quote what the same guy that told us it will be more expensive said just a little while ago.

QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
I didn't say it would be VERY expencive..I pointed out that it maybe won't be as cheap as your used to have. A difference there.
Notice the "VERY expensive" thing.. and notice the word maybe... so, nothing is for sure here either..

3) Will use the latest technology available.

This is true.. but what will be the latest technology available?? we dont know yet.. is this the sensor shift technology?? will this be the new Sony sensor?? or perhaps a totally new feature maybe...



we'll see what happens in the upcoming months and see if some of us.. or perhaps none are right with how the FF will be..


In case that you didnt watch the video that i posted.. here are the numbers.. and the WHY it can be possible

$205 raw cost to build Samsung S5 ( all electronic parts with the latest technology at the time )
$395 marketing + developing
$100 profit per phone

$700 final selling price


OnePlus basically manage to cut the price almost in half doing a different marketing, experience in the indsutry. We all know that Pentax dont spend that much on marketing.. and the company is not starting from 0. they have K3/K3ii and 645Z experience and engineering.. so some cost can be cut here too... Lately Pentax is selling most of the products using online stores.. so they are also similar to the OnePlus company.. but this is just an example, i could be wrong.. or perhaps right.. who knows..

The example just shows that there are ways to delivere great products at prices lower than the competition.. this strategy helped OnePlus to grow really fast within a market full of Samsung, Apple, LG or Sony

Last edited by kooks; 07-07-2015 at 08:36 PM.
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