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07-08-2015, 03:37 AM   #331
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
True. Canikosony are really making the environment tough for Ricoh. Halfway through 2015, and Sony have a hot new A7r II just about to hit stores. Canon have a new set of high MP studio cameras in the 5D S/R, and some new cameras to be released shortly. Nikon is putting out new and updated exotic FF lenses and is also apparently due to release a new high-end FF by end 2015 too.

Ricoh is going to have to work hard in 2015/16 to stand out and attact even the slightest amount of attention from FF pros (and everyone else in the market).
Then wouldn't it be the ultimate mess-up if Pentax would alienate the userbase they have that was attracted by their previously excellent value for money ratio? I would think it would be the only feature to exploint even further, not change directions.

07-08-2015, 05:11 AM   #332
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Interesting, but tricky move...
I'm affraid this continuous integration is no good news for small independent players like ricotax... let's hope for the best end, including new cooperation with Tamron as far as lenses are concerned.
But one of these months Pentax could well follow Olympus in Sony's arms....
Although I know this would not be necessarily bad news for some PF members.
I sometimes wonder how independent the camera companies really are. Most are utterly dependent on third-party suppliers without which they'd be gone tomorrow. Perhaps alliances rather than mergers are a way forward, at least between companies whose products don't compete too much and where the smaller side can still bring some tasty intellectual property to the table. An alliance of this kind between, say, Sony, Olympus and Ricoh would be interesting, each one sourcing both sensors and processors from the same stable while embedding the stuff in their own, distinctive tech and, of course, glass. Maybe relying just on Milbeaut + tweaks puts Pentax in a permanently weak position versus Canon, Nikon, Sony and Samsung. If Ricoh could find a way to leap out of this situation it might help them.
07-08-2015, 05:41 AM - 1 Like   #333
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Ricoh is not Pentax. Pentax had a reputation as a bargain brand. whether it intended that or not. Ricoh does not. Look at recent prices for all introductions. 16-85 for example. Cheap Pentax is no more, Ricoh intends to make money in the way they do in their other segments, one sale at a time. Anyway, you stated your opinion, I stated mine. Let's revisit this in December and see who is right.


I think you are $1,000 short on that number, at least for release price. But we will see in 6 months or so. All indications we have had from people who might actually know something is that this camera:
1) Will be aimed at the "professional" market
2) Will be more expensive than Pentax users are used to
3) Will use the latest technology available

If those are the stated parameters I don't see a release price under $3,300 or even $3,500.

I keep hearing that this camera is for the Pentax users with pent up demand. What if it is not? What if Ricoh has found and is going to target a completely different market?

What if as I said in my first post they do not care about the current user base but want to start over with a group willing to pay for a $3,500 camera?
Haven't read the whole thread so risking that....

One could argue that a mythical $2300 camera is aimed at the professional market (which in reality has no definition), is more expensive than Pentax users are used to, and uses the latest technology. You don't need a $3500 camera to do those.

It's an axiom of sales that it's much harder to get a new customer than to keep a current one. Any strategy that alienates current customers in favor of getting new ones is fighting uphill. Also, in the question of features vs price, it's better to disappoint a customer than to alienate him or her. You can recover from the former while you often can't from the latter. Features can disappoint, price can alienate.
07-08-2015, 05:56 AM - 1 Like   #334
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Do you know the story of the OnePlus cell phone?? why they can offer a high end telephone that cost half of what Samsung or iPhone telephones cost?? well. this apply to the all technology market. Do you think that Apple makes $50 of profit with each iphone or ipad that they sell?? hell no.. they make a lot more...

You can not compare consumer goods that sells in tens of million units backet by huge marketing resources to a niche products that will sell in the low 10 000's at best....

07-08-2015, 05:57 AM   #335
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
You can not compare consumer goods that sells in tens of million units backet by huge marketing resources to a niche products that will sell in the low 10 000's at best....
Correct and a good reason to leave out the Toyota vs Lexus analogies, too.
07-08-2015, 05:57 AM   #336
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Then wouldn't it be the ultimate mess-up if Pentax would alienate the userbase they have that was attracted by their previously excellent value for money ratio? I would think it would be the only feature to exploint even further, not change directions.
Value for money has nothing to do with price. And I don't think they alienate anyone not worth alienating if they came up with an FF DSLR that mimicks the D800....
07-08-2015, 06:10 AM   #337
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I have heard many of the folks (including Jay Sherman) touting what a good deal the D800 was at the price. I don't see why it would be any different if Pentax offers a similar camera for a similar price. There are plenty of third party lenses (number will probably increase after camera is released) that folks can buy if they don't want to spend the price Pentax will charge for full frame lenses.
07-08-2015, 06:16 AM   #338
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
and I don't think they alienate anyone not worth alienating if they came up with an FF DSLR that mimicks the D800.
'anyone not worth alienating'
While I agree that a D810 class camera is a good goal, I hope you are not suggesting that Pentax could - or should - become an expensive, 'elite' prestige brand like Leica. The whole history of Pentax says that's not what Pentax is about.

07-08-2015, 06:26 AM   #339
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
'anyone not worth alienating'
While I agree that a D810 class camera is a good goal, I hope you are not suggesting that Pentax could - or should - become an expensive, 'elite' prestige brand like Leica. The whole history of Pentax says that's not what Pentax is about.
I don't think there are any reason to suspect that Pentax will mimmick Nikon or Canon in the FF market. Those two are making cameras to support a large FF lens line-up with roots from the film days. Pentax have a lens line-up of APS lenses.
I think Pentax interest in FF is due to the fact that it is a low volume, potential high profit segment. It is the high-end aspect of it that makes it interesting. They need to fill the hole between the K-3 and the 645z. I don't expect any budget FF body from Pentax; that segment is taken care of by lower priced APS bodies.
07-08-2015, 06:30 AM   #340
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Value for money has nothing to do with price. And I don't think they alienate anyone not worth alienating if they came up with an FF DSLR that mimicks the D800....
Price has a lot to do with value. Simplistically... value = features / price

The price is a known figure (well, once the camera is formally announced). Everyone will assign their own figure to the collection of features (again, once it's announced) and do the math.
07-08-2015, 06:32 AM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
'anyone not worth alienating'
While I agree that a D810 class camera is a good goal, I hope you are not suggesting that Pentax could - or should - become an expensive, 'elite' prestige brand like Leica. The whole history of Pentax says that's not what Pentax is about.
I don't think anyone thinks Pentax is going to turn into Leica -- particularly not when they are selling K50 bodies for sub-300 dollar prices. They just aren't willing to put out a full frame body that is close enough to a K3 (upper end APS-C) that it will steal its sales.

They aren't big enough to have multiple full frame models at this point. Looking at Nikon's lineup -- D610, D750, D810, D4s, Df -- it feels like the D810 is the easiest camera niche for Pentax to emulate and target. D610 is too low priced. I would guess them trying to cross a D750 and D810 and come out with something that fits between there.
07-08-2015, 06:35 AM   #342
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I think Pentax interest in FF is due to the fact that it is a low volume, potential high profit segment. It is the high-end aspect of it that makes it interesting.
The days when "FF" meant "high-end" are over.

There is no space for expensive APS-C bodies in the market anymore. FF is the new normal. In other words, an FF model is the only way to stay in business long-term.

Surely Ricoh can try to target high-end at the same time but I think the Pentax brand is less than ideally positioned for this right now.
07-08-2015, 06:41 AM   #343
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Price has a lot to do with value. Simplistically... value = features / price.
What he meant was that you can get "value for money" at any price point, which is true in principle but there is a problem with very high price points because then you have to beat the best in terms of performance, system strength, and service.

I don't see Pentax being ready for such prime time, hence my concerns about a "pro-level priced" model.
07-08-2015, 06:42 AM   #344
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't think anyone thinks Pentax is going to turn into Leica -- particularly not when they are selling K50 bodies for sub-300 dollar prices. They just aren't willing to put out a full frame body that is close enough to a K3 (upper end APS-C) that it will steal its sales.

They aren't big enough to have multiple full frame models at this point. Looking at Nikon's lineup -- D610, D750, D810, D4s, Df -- it feels like the D810 is the easiest camera niche for Pentax to emulate and target. D610 is too low priced. I would guess them trying to cross a D750 and D810 and come out with something that fits between there.
Rondec, on the surface I agree. The problem is Ricoh can't really emulate any of those offerings now because the camera is worthless without a lens. I *think* people are willing to pay big money for Canon and Nikon FF DSLRs because they know they can buy a lens that works with the camera for almost any situation. Ricoh's proposition is much more limited in this regard and will likely remain so for some period of time. Of course IBIS helps but you still need the FF lenses for the camera to have value.
07-08-2015, 06:44 AM   #345
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Ricoh is not Pentax. Pentax had a reputation as a bargain brand. whether it intended that or not. Ricoh does not. Look at recent prices for all introductions. 16-85 for example. Cheap Pentax is no more, Ricoh intends to make money in the way they do in their other segments, one sale at a time.
Sure fine... So where should the alienated userbase, that preferred Pentax for its more then excellent affordability, turn to now? Which brand will eagurly welcome them with open arms? Ricoh is playing a dangerous gamble imho. Betting everything on the new expensive gear being a major success, alienating much of the existing userbase.
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