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07-08-2015, 04:55 PM   #376
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think K-01 was mostly Hoya's baby. But I also remember Ricoh being pretty aggressive at lowering prices when it turned out they couldn't get rid of the K-01 units.
Yes, absolutely. I took advantage of the December 2012 "fire sale" myself. But their initial pricing hasn't always been realistic.

So I guess if the FF turns out to be $3000 or whatever people consider unreasonable, just hang around for a few months and there's a decent chance it will drop quite a bit.

(Wait, weren't there two other rumors?}

07-08-2015, 05:01 PM   #377
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Finally someone seems to get it. Ricoh needs NEW customers; they already 'have' us. Of course, there's nothing so bitter and hateful as a long-unrequited lover finally, unequivocally spurned.
QuoteOriginally posted by jarrah Quote
Why do you insist this FF camera is for current Pentax users? Everyone keeps saying "Pentax users are cheap", "want a bargain" and so on. Yet all indications are the new lenses and FF are not targeted at anyone looking for a bargain. So I am postulating that this camera is NOT intended for the current "cheap" Pentax user base but for a completely new user base. If anyone from the current user base wants to buy I am sure they will be delighted but I think they are aiming elsewhere.

And as someone else noted above, based on the 150-450 price I expected slow sells yet it seems there are more people reporting on it than the 16-85 for example. So maybe the Pentax user base is willing to buy more $3,000 cameras than you think.
No one here gives a whit what I think or what I'll do - but - I think D810 target, more incremental AF improvement, no OBF, jury is out on the image processor - $2500> <$3000.

I'll get one, but only because I already have so many FF lenses. In fact, what I DON'T need is the K-3.

Last edited by monochrome; 07-08-2015 at 06:19 PM.
07-08-2015, 05:23 PM   #378
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Ricoh needs NEW customers; they already 'have' us.
I think that we all agree with this.. the question here is HOW.. building this users from the botton ..or skipping and targeting high end spenders?? .

For example.. how do you think that RIcoh will have new costumers (forgeting the already pentax users) looking for something like the D810 if Ricoh comes with a camera that performs the "same" as the D810?? this people already have the D810 or maybe the A7r or the 5Dmk3.. there is no point of giving them something that they can already have just going to any camera store today.

Thats my concern about all this price/spects thing. Saying that Ricoh is not looking to please current Pentax users is BIG risk.. if are not Pentax users Who will this new target??? Nikon users? no, they already have the D810.. Canon? no, they have the 5Dmk3s.. Sony?? they have the A7r... FUji? no.. Olympus?? no... So who?? If Pentax comes with a camera with similar spects, and almost at the same price as the ones that are already in the market. this wont bring new clients at all.. this clients already have their own FF cameras..
07-08-2015, 05:42 PM   #379
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
I think that we all agree with this.. the question here is HOW.. building this users from the botton ..or skipping and targeting high end spenders?? .

For example.. how do you think that RIcoh will have new costumers (forgeting the already pentax users) looking for something like the D810 if Ricoh comes with a camera that performs the "same" as the D810?? this people already have the D810 or maybe the A7r or the 5Dmk3.. there is no point of giving them something that they can already have just going to any camera store today.

Thats my concern about all this price/spects thing. Saying that Ricoh is not looking to please current Pentax users is BIG risk.. if are not Pentax users Who will this new target??? Nikon users? no, they already have the D810.. Canon? no, they have the 5Dmk3s.. Sony?? they have the A7r... FUji? no.. Olympus?? no... So who?? If Pentax comes with a camera with similar spects, and almost at the same price as the ones that are already in the market. this wont bring new clients at all.. this clients already have their own FF cameras..
They know better than US to get new customers. Just ask Fuji. How could they get customers when they introduced X-Pro1 ? Everyone could be as sceptical as you are. But you will get surprise, when you introduce something really new in the market.
The questions is not how to get customers. But how to give something new and different from others. That's why I suggest Ricoh use the same sensor as Sony A7RII, because it is relatively new, and Pentax could be the second with that sensor but still first using it in DSLR. Then develop new AF system, and lastly 4K video. Pentax can't ignore this feature anymore. Look Panasonic GH4, the price is always stable, unlike K-3 or K-3II get discount many times. What I said is not a dream, it is within the reach, and Ricoh can do it.

07-08-2015, 05:42 PM - 1 Like   #380
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D810 is $3,300 List and $2,999 Street . . . . How do you square kenspo claiming Pentax plans to release a Pro camera to match the 150-450, 70-200 and presumed 24-70 (which appear to be very high end) with a low-end, low price camera? It just doesn't work even if they also release a 24-105/4 as a consumer lens. :wink:

Simple logic points to the mid-high $2000's. It fits the Japanese market where they get half their revenue. We have to live with that, like it or not. Wanting a lower price won't make it happen. Acting like we know better than Ricoh how they should price won't make it happen. Reaching back to Hoya's pricing strategy as a guideline - well, Hoya sold Pentax to Ricoh, TYVM.

Pentax isn't a high volume maker. They won't price for volume. They'll price to sell a few tens of thousands of bodies over 36 months, and make a profit doing it. That's all they want - 30,000 or so units over three years if they're really lucky.

645Z pre-orders were 2x the planned production for the entire 1st year, which was a complete sport. If K-FF would have a similar pre-order I imagine they'd be ecstatic but it isn't likely. The FF market isn't wide open at ANY price point the way cropped 645 was at $9,000.

Of course I don't know anything either this time.

Last edited by monochrome; 07-08-2015 at 06:26 PM.
07-08-2015, 05:59 PM   #381
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
400 dollars can differentiate two tiers though.. and thus different buyers.. and number of buyers..

However, This isn't the first camera Ricoh/Pentax has sold so they know how to price appropriately... no worries about that.
They do? Ricoh just lowered the USA price of the GR II by $100 before it even made it into stores.
07-08-2015, 06:18 PM   #382
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
I think that we all agree with this.. the question here is HOW.. building this users from the botton ..or skipping and targeting high end spenders?? .

For example.. how do you think that RIcoh will have new costumers (forgeting the already pentax users) looking for something like the D810 if Ricoh comes with a camera that performs the "same" as the D810?? this people already have the D810 or maybe the A7r or the 5Dmk3.. there is no point of giving them something that they can already have just going to any camera store today.

Thats my concern about all this price/spects thing. Saying that Ricoh is not looking to please current Pentax users is BIG risk.. if are not Pentax users Who will this new target??? Nikon users? no, they already have the D810.. Canon? no, they have the 5Dmk3s.. Sony?? they have the A7r... FUji? no.. Olympus?? no... So who?? If Pentax comes with a camera with similar spects, and almost at the same price as the ones that are already in the market. this wont bring new clients at all.. this clients already have their own FF cameras..
But that is the issue with coming into the digital FF market so late.. the market has matured enough where much of the market is already defined.. both in userbase and technology..

I think they will mostly be trying to provide a K mount FF but at a decent price.. sub 3k. Don't expect the 1500 price point though.. it seems, to me, their goal is simply to fill a spot in their lineup.. to think they would try to shift the entire market their way is a bit unrealistic. They just want a piece..
07-08-2015, 06:46 PM   #383
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Acting like we know better than Ricoh how they should price won't make it happen
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
They won't price for volume. They'll price to sell a few tens of thousands of bodies over 36 months, and make a profit doing it. That's all they want - 30,000 or so units over three years
This 2 lines looks kind of contradictory.. does any of us actually KNOW what THEY are doing?? i dont think that any of us have a clue about all this thing.. we might have personal opinions.. but that's it..

I just dont see how this aiming high might fit in all this story.. based on the models just released KS2 and K3ii they keep droping prices.. KS2 is at around $630 .. and the D5500 is at $747 .. K3ii is at $930 .. and D7200 is at $1197 ... 645Z is at $7612 and Hassy at $27.000 .... seems to ME that prices are always lower than the competition... or am I missing something?? .. and this is why i just dont get why some people keep saying that Ricoh is changing target based on a couple of lenses.. when their latest bodys dont show that "strategy change"... perhaps the lenses will be expensive or at least average for its kind.. but the bodys seems to ME that are always lower than the competition.. and we are talking about 100% Ricoh products.. not Hoya...

who knows what will happen.. lets just hope that is for the best of the company and users.

---------- Post added 07-08-15 at 07:54 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by afan137 Quote
The questions is not how to get customers. But how to give something new and different from others.
True.. the thing here is that when the differnece is based on the technology this wont last that long.. for example if Pentax comes with a new Sony sensor.. well.. eventually a just a few months later Nikon will come with that sensor too.. so what can they give to the amrket that is not already in the market and that will make a difference for quite some time... at least nothing really comes to my mind that could really make this difference

07-08-2015, 07:01 PM - 1 Like   #384
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I'm not even responding until you price compare comparable models with comparable age technology.

Pay attention. It's about volume. They simply cannot sell a high volume of FF's no matter what price. CaNikon have that blocked. They can only sell a few tens of thousands of units AT ANY PRICE - high, low, doesn't matter.

To make it at least break-even it HAS TO BE RETAIL above $2,600 U.S. including Dealer markup, which means $1,600 factory dock. Since they have zero marketing expense and basically only internet dealers in most western markets they can AFFORD TO offer more features at a price point. But they can't do that AND market AND give good support AND good warranty AND good repair AND on-demand replacement cameras, so we can expect a near D810 camera at a better price and excellent but expensive lenses.

But the body WILL NOT be inexpensive. They simply CANNOT DO IT profitably and I don't think Ricoh is willing to lose money.
07-08-2015, 07:06 PM   #385
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
To make it at least break-even it HAS TO BE RETAIL above $2,600 U.S. including Dealer markup, which means $1,600 factory dock.

How'd you come to that figure?
07-08-2015, 07:46 PM   #386
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
But the body WILL NOT be inexpensive. They simply CANNOT DO IT profitably and I don't think Ricoh is willing to lose money.
I dont think that we are waiting for a $1500/$1600 body.. that is for sure.. it wont happen.. or could it? :O .. honestly i dont think so.. I do think that we can expect something between $2200 and $2500 ...


QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
How'd you come to that figure?
art of magic... maybe..


QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I'm not even responding until you price compare comparable models with comparable age technology.
ohh so.. the KS2 isnt comparable with the Nikon D5500???.. and the K3ii is not with the Nikon D7200 ??? mmm funny.. all the reviews compare this models within their own category..
07-08-2015, 09:10 PM   #387
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I wonder how Nikon NOT having a D810 in their line up would affect sales of the D610. I think a lot of users buy into the system with a cheap body and build up a set of lenses, with the intention of upgrading to a high end body later. Perhaps some of them never do, but it sits there as a sign of how far you can go within the system.

So essentially they need the D610 for its affordability and the volume it can provide to their lens sales. But they also need the D810 to attract the high spenders and as an object of aspiration for other users. I think Ricoh will need to do the same, and fairly quickly.

The problem is that Ricoh can't build the whole system at once. They could probably do two bodies at once, but not a whole set of FF lenses at different price points. So something has to come first, and it looks like it's the high end camera, based on the wide aperture zooms that they have on the roadmap. If we're really lucky, we might see both released close together, but if it's a $4,000 model, I hope it has the highest level of weather sealing to withstand the tears of sobbing Pentaxians.

Last edited by JPT; 07-08-2015 at 11:29 PM.
07-08-2015, 10:24 PM   #388
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
a $4,000 model
With all the exchange rate fluctuations currently (due to world events), I don't even know what that might mean at the moment, let alone in 3-4 months time. Let's just hope that it isn't way too high.
QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
the tears of sobbing Pentaxians.
Tears of joy?
07-08-2015, 11:26 PM   #389
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I'll still believe that it will be around 2500 €. Well at launch it might be 2900, but I'll not pay for early adopters price.
07-09-2015, 12:08 AM   #390
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
There's nothing suggesting that the user base won't spend $3000. Their user base is currently APS users and in order for the vast majority of them to spend money on an FF body it needs to deliver something more than the K-3.
Yes, but the K-3 II is "already" $940 on B&H. Are we expecting three times the camera, or just twice the camera? ($2K vs $3K)

I've studied the price differentials between all of the comparable full-frame and crop-sensor siblings from Canon and Nikon. The D300 and D700 are two of the best examples of nailing the market perfectly, with almost identical bodies, and the price difference? About $1K. The same thing is happening now with the 24 MP DX and FX Nikon sensors. The D7200 is about $1200, (and dropping) ...and the D610 / D750 is about $2200. (and definitely dropping!)

If Pentax can manage to take the Sony 42 MP sensor and beat the Canon 5DsR for dynamic range and high ISO performance, and surpass its resolving power when using a pixel-shift technique, then yes I could see a camera costing just under $3K. But even the 5Ds R is under $4K, and the Nikon D810 is approaching $2K now on the Grey Market. Hence, my bet is ~$1900-$2400 for the FF Pentax.
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