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08-12-2015, 07:39 AM   #526
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I wouldn't be disappointed in third parties doing some lenses here or there. Some of them are brilliant!

Case and point:

Sigma ART 35mm f1.4
Sigma ART 50mm f1.4
Tamron 90mm Macro Di f2.8
Tokina 16-35mm f4

Brilliant, brilliant lenses.

08-12-2015, 07:41 AM   #527
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The DA 12-24 is a Tokina design.
I was refering to the coming lenses on the roadmap. It seems to me that the only basis for this rebadging/outsourcing rumor is that one lens seems to be a 15-30 lens. As Tamron got one the Pentax must be a Tamron. False logic in my opinion....
08-12-2015, 08:10 AM   #528
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Since we are all having fun giving opinions on lenses and the manufacture there of...maybe someone like Kenspo/Asahi Man, or Ricoh lurkers will relay some of these back to corporate, here is my .02 cents, accounting for inflation:


Lens design - Extremely important
Lens materials and durability - Extremely important
QC of component manufacture - Extremely important squared!
QC of assembly - Extremely important squared!


OK, that might be pretty obvious... but to my point. The BEST design, using the BEST materials, can still be an epic FAIL if the QC of either the components or the assembly is randomly good/bad.

I don't think Pentax can afford any QC issues even on a small scale like the SDM issue, nor the random decentering that effect some.

Tamron, god bless them and their wonderfully priced lenses, have some wonderful designs and glass, but lets face it, have had their share of QC issues in the recent past. I hasn't stopped me from buying them, and re-buying them until I got a good one in some cases.

So... Even though every aspect of a lens creation is important... I am beginning to think:

A design that is above average and deemed "good enough" to give a sharp, minimal distortion image but has impeccable quality control in manufacture, is a better business move for Pentax than the "ultimate" lens design with all the corrections (many of which can be done in software, or right in the camera now), but has spotty quality control either in components or assembly.

You can't put real sharpness back where it never was, or missed AF opportunities where the lens is hunting around, but mild distortion and mild CA are easily dealt with in camera or in post with modern bodies. If compromises need to be made meet a cost in production, at least on the consumer grade products, I hope they are for latter types, and certainly not in quality control or the QC in final assembly.

Thoughts?
Eric
08-12-2015, 08:17 AM   #529
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Re. QC issues, you just need luck as a consumer

And as you say, default experiences don't necessary divert your customers as an industrial, IF aftersales service is performing good enough...

08-12-2015, 11:56 AM   #530
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I was refering to the coming lenses on the roadmap. It seems to me that the only basis for this rebadging/outsourcing rumor is that one lens seems to be a 15-30 lens. As Tamron got one the Pentax must be a Tamron. False logic in my opinion....
+1 As far as I can remember the origin of the 15-30 rumor is from the road map focal length bars. Which are subject to interpretation. So that assumed 15-30 might be a 14-31 or 16-32 or ??? Nothing there says it cannot be the Tamron 15-30 design, but nothing there says it will be or even will be 15-30, except some wishful thinking by some who like that lens.
08-12-2015, 12:39 PM   #531
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You still bypass the main argument that is based on facts and history, which i regret having to remind you : the potential R&D lever of Ricoh/ Pentax is : one or two new lenses per sensor format / optical system per year.
This has been the case at least since 2010.
And whish it or not, i don't see how this could be changed in less than a pretty long time.
Hence the logical optical engineering outsourcing to specialists like Tamron or Tokina...

Last edited by Zygonyx; 08-12-2015 at 12:44 PM.
08-12-2015, 12:58 PM   #532
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
You still bypass the main argument that is based on facts and history, which i regret having to remind you : the potential R&D lever of Ricoh/ Pentax is : one or two new lenses per sensor format / optical system per year.
This has been the case at least since 2010.
thats fine with me, i can afford one or two new lenses a year, not 6
08-12-2015, 01:05 PM   #533
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
You still bypass the main argument that is based on facts and history, which i regret having to remind you : the potential R&D lever of Ricoh/ Pentax is : one or two new lenses per sensor format / optical system per year.
This has been the case at least since 2010.
And whish it or not, i don't see how this could be changed in less than a pretty long time.
Hence the logical optical engineering outsourcing to specialists like Tamron or Tokina...
I'm not aware of any outsourcing to Tamron. Pentax have sold one rebadged Tamron lens. So have Nikon. This lens was a cheap wide zoom range kit lens that only volume could make cheap enough.
I have no idea about Pentax lens R&D capacity. Nor have anyone else on this forum....

08-12-2015, 01:25 PM   #534
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The recent and ongoing downturn in DSLR sales has affected 3rd party lens makers as well as the camera makers. If there's money to be made in lenses in a long-term market niche, like Pentax, then Sigma and Tamron will be all over it. Plus a full frame model says "pentax is here to stay"
08-12-2015, 01:28 PM   #535
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Funny, all this chitchat about who manufactured lenses for whom. I have Pentax-branded lenses designed by Zeiss Oberkochen (SMC K 28mm f/2 "Hollywood"), but also Pentax-designed and even manufactured lenses branded "Ricoh Rikenon" (the 28mm f/3.5 XR Rikenon). My SMC Pentax-FA 100mm f/3.5 Macro was manufactured by Cosina. The SMC Pentax-DA 35mm f/2.8 Limited Macro is a Tokina design. The SMC Pentax-FA 28-200mm AL [IF] zoom I had on my ZX-5 was from Tamron. The list goes on and on.

Pentax seems to be really promiscuous, don't they? The same goes for all other optical firms nowadays. Nothing special and nothing to be ashamed of either!

Last edited by Asahiflex; 08-12-2015 at 01:39 PM.
08-12-2015, 01:50 PM   #536
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I'm not aware of any outsourcing to Tamron. Pentax have sold one rebadged Tamron lens. So have Nikon. This lens was a cheap wide zoom range kit lens that only volume could make cheap enough.
I have no idea about Pentax lens R&D capacity. Nor have anyone else on this forum....
For sure we don't know the facts in Pentax, but here are the facts from lens design industry (and believe me, I know exactly what I am talking about) :
>designing a lens takes from 1 to 3 years depending on complexity, without taking into account further production issues
>a lens design software licence is at least 30-40 thousand euros a year
>a big optical design team is about 10 designers (see my earlier post about a german company)
So saying that Pentax can produce 'only' 3-4 lenses per year is realistic
08-12-2015, 01:52 PM   #537
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
You still bypass the main argument that is based on facts and history, which i regret having to remind you : the potential R&D lever of Ricoh/ Pentax is : one or two new lenses per sensor format / optical system per year.
This has been the case at least since 2010.
And whish it or not, i don't see how this could be changed in less than a pretty long time.
Hence the logical optical engineering outsourcing to specialists like Tamron or Tokina...
That's a very dangerous assumption. Is taking the first Ricoh/Pentax years as a sort of definite indication of the actual new lens introduction capacity, but is that true?
What we know is that for 2015, we have 2 K-mount lenses, another one announced but postponed for improvements and a few others more expected (to be available together with the FF body).
08-12-2015, 01:56 PM   #538
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Still baseless speculation.
No way designing a lens takes 1-3 years. it may take that time from start of design to the time it hits the shops.
Pentax have lens design software.
We have no idea about the size Pentax + Ricoh's lens design team. Almost certainly far more than ten persons. Their capacity is unknown to us.

My issue isn't whether Pentax lenses may be outsourced or not, but that this speculation is based on nothing but hot air....
08-12-2015, 02:06 PM   #539
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Still baseless speculation.
No way designing a lens takes 1-3 years. it may take that time from start of design to the time it hits the shops.
Pentax have lens design software.
We have no idea about the size Pentax + Ricoh's lens design team. Almost certainly far more than ten persons. Their capacity is unknown to us.

My issue isn't whether Pentax lenses may be outsourced or not, but that this speculation is based on nothing but hot air....
Sorry but the duration I give here is the standard duration for lens designing. Because the link between optics, mechanics, and other constraints (temperature, vibration, weather sealing) is not straight forward at all. And the production tollerancing is not simple.
I am part of the lens designing industry in fact, so I guess I know this kind of stuff better than you do...
08-12-2015, 02:09 PM   #540
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Does everyone here realize that Zeiss only manufactures their Cine line, Otus and maybe the Loxia line themselves? Has that hurt Zeiss? Has it hurt their reputation?

(...)
Zeiss Otus and Loxia lenses are manufactured in Japan.
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