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08-13-2015, 03:58 AM - 2 Likes   #556
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In house design software is only one consideration for a green light to manufacture, the marketing and finance departments of Ricoh will have their say on the matter, why design and "tool up" production yourself when others will make a "off the shelf" conversion to your specifications and then if all fails the "in costs" will have been lower to get into the market segment you want, if the projected "market penertration" is successful replace the bought in components with your own, Pentax has "outsourced" many parts of its product catalogue for decades, the fash system was Panasonic, after k10 it went to Nissin, that's why the flash protocol changed, so Nissin had a chance to sell guns along side the new k20 k7 Ect, the 31/43/77 used to be made by Cosina/Voightlander, Tamron have supplied several zoom lens, and my bet is the 150-450 is a Sigma, long time cooperator with Ricoh since the Sigma SA1 (A Ricoh KR10 rebadged and supplied with a Sigma 28-70 zoom, and the KR10 was a Nikkormat with a k mount and more electronics), Seikorex make the shutters, ME range was the first (Sekonic light and flash meters, Seiko watches any electronic timing device) Sanyo make the rechargeable bits batteries and chargers, Tokina made the 16-50 and 50-135 and will supply the new standard zoom 24-70 and a new wideangle zoom, the new 70-200 maybe Tamron or Tokina, 645z is in house but the lens are now made by Tamron who owned and made the medium format Bronica range, Q series was originally a Kenko product. sorry to upset you guys who think Pentax is a large manufacturing giant, sorry its not, its been a bit of a "Paper Operation" for some time.

08-13-2015, 04:35 AM   #557
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QuoteOriginally posted by Snappertim Quote
In house design software is only one consideration for a green light to manufacture, the marketing and finance departments of Ricoh will have their say on the matter, why design and "tool up" production yourself when others will make a "off the shelf" conversion to your specifications and then if all fails the "in costs" will have been lower to get into the market segment you want, if the projected "market penertration" is successful replace the bought in components with your own, Pentax has "outsourced" many parts of its product catalogue for decades, the fash system was Panasonic, after k10 it went to Nissin, that's why the flash protocol changed, so Nissin had a chance to sell guns along side the new k20 k7 Ect, the 31/43/77 used to be made by Cosina/Voightlander, Tamron have supplied several zoom lens, and my bet is the 150-450 is a Sigma, long time cooperator with Ricoh since the Sigma SA1 (A Ricoh KR10 rebadged and supplied with a Sigma 28-70 zoom, and the KR10 was a Nikkormat with a k mount and more electronics), Seikorex make the shutters, ME range was the first (Sekonic light and flash meters, Seiko watches any electronic timing device) Sanyo make the rechargeable bits batteries and chargers, Tokina made the 16-50 and 50-135 and will supply the new standard zoom 24-70 and a new wideangle zoom, the new 70-200 maybe Tamron or Tokina, 645z is in house but the lens are now made by Tamron who owned and made the medium format Bronica range, Q series was originally a Kenko product. sorry to upset you guys who think Pentax is a large manufacturing giant, sorry its not, its been a bit of a "Paper Operation" for some time.

Great list. And as we all know the first 5 gens of Nikon AF came from Pentax... (I love that one)...
08-13-2015, 04:40 AM   #558
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
It "follows" from the fact (AFAIK) that Tamron is the only 15-30mm lens provider out there. I don't imagine Pentax developing another one do you?
Yes, I do.
By that logic all lenses with same focal length (range) should be made by the same manufacturer. I mean, someone made the first 28-70/2.8 (or any other lens) as well. All subsequent 28-70/2.8 lenses must be the same design?

This doesn't mean that the 15-30/2.8 (provided it is a 15-30/2.8) isn't a rebadget Tamron lens. However, there's no basis for it except for similar speed and zoom range.

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 08-13-2015 at 04:47 AM.
08-13-2015, 04:46 AM   #559
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Yes, I do.
By that logic all lenses with same focal lenght (range) should be made by the same manufacturer. I mean, someone made the first 28-70/2.8 (or any other lens) as well. All subsequent lenses must be the same design?
Supporting your logic, there are some real "dog" 28-70 2.8s out there, and some good ones. If the other logic held (one mfgr makes the same lens for all) everyone's would be either great or suck.

08-13-2015, 09:08 AM   #560
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QuoteOriginally posted by Snappertim Quote
In house design software is only one consideration for a green light to manufacture, the marketing and finance departments of Ricoh will have their say on the matter, why design and "tool up" production yourself when others will make a "off the shelf" conversion to your specifications and then if all fails the "in costs" will have been lower to get into the market segment you want, if the projected "market penertration" is successful replace the bought in components with your own, Pentax has "outsourced" many parts of its product catalogue for decades, the fash system was Panasonic, after k10 it went to Nissin, that's why the flash protocol changed, so Nissin had a chance to sell guns along side the new k20 k7 Ect, the 31/43/77 used to be made by Cosina/Voightlander, Tamron have supplied several zoom lens, and my bet is the 150-450 is a Sigma, long time cooperator with Ricoh since the Sigma SA1 (A Ricoh KR10 rebadged and supplied with a Sigma 28-70 zoom, and the KR10 was a Nikkormat with a k mount and more electronics), Seikorex make the shutters, ME range was the first (Sekonic light and flash meters, Seiko watches any electronic timing device) Sanyo make the rechargeable bits batteries and chargers, Tokina made the 16-50 and 50-135 and will supply the new standard zoom 24-70 and a new wideangle zoom, the new 70-200 maybe Tamron or Tokina, 645z is in house but the lens are now made by Tamron who owned and made the medium format Bronica range, Q series was originally a Kenko product. sorry to upset you guys who think Pentax is a large manufacturing giant, sorry its not, its been a bit of a "Paper Operation" for some time.
And slight dose of fantasy IMO.
08-13-2015, 09:18 AM   #561
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"Slight"? I'd like to see some proof about the 70-200 being Tamron or Tokina, 645 lenses being made by Tamron etc.
08-13-2015, 09:25 AM   #562
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QuoteOriginally posted by Snappertim Quote
In house design software is only one consideration for a green light to manufacture, the marketing and finance departments of Ricoh will have their say on the matter, why design and "tool up" production yourself when others will make a "off the shelf" conversion to your specifications and then if all fails the "in costs" will have been lower to get into the market segment you want, if the projected "market penertration" is successful replace the bought in components with your own, Pentax has "outsourced" many parts of its product catalogue for decades, the fash system was Panasonic, after k10 it went to Nissin, that's why the flash protocol changed, so Nissin had a chance to sell guns along side the new k20 k7 Ect, the 31/43/77 used to be made by Cosina/Voightlander, Tamron have supplied several zoom lens, and my bet is the 150-450 is a Sigma, long time cooperator with Ricoh since the Sigma SA1 (A Ricoh KR10 rebadged and supplied with a Sigma 28-70 zoom, and the KR10 was a Nikkormat with a k mount and more electronics), Seikorex make the shutters, ME range was the first (Sekonic light and flash meters, Seiko watches any electronic timing device) Sanyo make the rechargeable bits batteries and chargers, Tokina made the 16-50 and 50-135 and will supply the new standard zoom 24-70 and a new wideangle zoom, the new 70-200 maybe Tamron or Tokina, 645z is in house but the lens are now made by Tamron who owned and made the medium format Bronica range, Q series was originally a Kenko product. sorry to upset you guys who think Pentax is a large manufacturing giant, sorry its not, its been a bit of a "Paper Operation" for some time.
Thanks for this other enlightment.
I think we - the "western" people - don't have the same cultural schemes as the "eastern" people, amongst whom Japanese are also a special case.

So, interpreting some reactions here, against facts billiantly illustrated as you did ; the past and actual "photog ecosystem" in Japan doesn't match with the "competition paradigm" that too many of us see as an intangible and constant goal in (economical) life.
Moreover, you confirm that there are sound economical arguments in favor of more and more "cross-cooperation" as far as optics design and manufacture happens to be - see gorme's last posts.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 08-13-2015 at 09:34 AM.
08-13-2015, 09:33 AM   #563
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QuoteOriginally posted by gorme Quote
I need optimisation and tollerancing algorithms, not just simulation.

Which are all present in newer versions of the mentioned softwares. MatLab included.


I can agree that the ones you mentioned is more narrowly focused, but that is another matter. I know plenty of people who work with optics that relies on Comsol. Not for photography though.

08-13-2015, 12:33 PM   #564
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
And the 12-28 is on Pentax road map.
IIRC that's another f/4 design; I wish a 2.8 zoom would come to APS-C. As numerous recent full-frame zooms have proven, you've got to lug around a 2-2.5 lb brick if you want good image equality in a full-frame zoom, whereas the Tokina 11-16 2.8 is downright svelte and yet incredibly sharp.

I'm a fan of full-frame, when paired with the right primes that take full advantage of its sensor. However when it comes to zooms I think the whole purpose is efficiency and versatility in every respect, weight being one of those factors, ..and therefore I'll probably own more crop-sensor zooms than full-frame zooms till kingdom come.

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08-13-2015, 01:02 PM   #565
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QuoteOriginally posted by Snappertim Quote
In house design software is only one consideration for a green light to manufacture, the marketing and finance departments of Ricoh will have their say on the matter, why design and "tool up" production yourself when others will make a "off the shelf" conversion to your specifications and then if all fails the "in costs" will have been lower to get into the market segment you want, if the projected "market penertration" is successful replace the bought in components with your own, Pentax has "outsourced" many parts of its product catalogue for decades, the fash system was Panasonic, after k10 it went to Nissin, that's why the flash protocol changed, so Nissin had a chance to sell guns along side the new k20 k7 Ect, the 31/43/77 used to be made by Cosina/Voightlander, Tamron have supplied several zoom lens, and my bet is the 150-450 is a Sigma, long time cooperator with Ricoh since the Sigma SA1 (A Ricoh KR10 rebadged and supplied with a Sigma 28-70 zoom, and the KR10 was a Nikkormat with a k mount and more electronics), Seikorex make the shutters, ME range was the first (Sekonic light and flash meters, Seiko watches any electronic timing device) Sanyo make the rechargeable bits batteries and chargers, Tokina made the 16-50 and 50-135 and will supply the new standard zoom 24-70 and a new wideangle zoom, the new 70-200 maybe Tamron or Tokina, 645z is in house but the lens are now made by Tamron who owned and made the medium format Bronica range, Q series was originally a Kenko product. sorry to upset you guys who think Pentax is a large manufacturing giant, sorry its not, its been a bit of a "Paper Operation" for some time.
I don't believe there's any evidence that Cosina has anything to do with the FA Limiteds other than the case (not the glass) of the Leica version of the FA 43 (and even that is just a rumor - and it might not even be Cosina - source is Stephen Gandy).

I'd like to know your sources since you affirm this to be a fact.
08-13-2015, 01:13 PM - 3 Likes   #566
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QuoteOriginally posted by Snappertim Quote
(...) the 31/43/77 used to be made by Cosina/Voigtländer (...)
Did they??? Source?

QuoteOriginally posted by Snappertim Quote
(...) Tokina made the 16-50 and 50-135 (...)
I'm afraid they didn't. Optical formulas correspond to patents granted to Pentax and have been licensed by Pentax to Tokina. Each company designed their own casing, focus method (screw drive with push-pull AF/MF clutch for Tokina and screw drive + SDM with Quick Shift for Pentax) and electronic coupling (among other things) and manufactured their version of the lens.

QuoteOriginally posted by Snappertim Quote
(...) Tokina (...) will supply the new standard zoom 24-70 and a new wideangle zoom (...)
Will they? Source?

QuoteOriginally posted by Snappertim Quote
(...) the new 70-200 maybe Tamron or Tokina (...)
Or Pentax .
08-13-2015, 01:21 PM   #567
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
I don't believe there's any evidence that Cosina has anything to do with the FA Limiteds other than the case (not the glass) of the Leica version of the FA 43 (and even that is just a rumor - and it might not even be Cosina - source is Stephen Gandy).

I'd like to know your sources since you affirm this to be a fact.
It is complete nonsense like the rest of his post. The Cosina rumors came about because the original Limiteds were chrome finished and Cosina made chrome finished lenses, hence, they must be made by Cosina. (ie the same logic that all 15-30mm lenses must be made by the same manufacturer). The Cosina false rumor was debunked by the Limited lens designer himself via his own mailing list.

---------- Post added 08-13-15 at 10:22 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote


Or Pentax .
The 70-200/2.8 is patented by Pentax.
08-13-2015, 02:21 PM   #568
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So is the D-FA 150-450/4.5-5,6
08-13-2015, 02:27 PM   #569
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
So is the D-FA 150-450/4.5-5,6
Full of crap?

Last edited by Tom S.; 08-13-2015 at 04:11 PM. Reason: profanity removed.
08-13-2015, 02:28 PM   #570
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It feels like the 24-70 and the 70-200 are the "easy" lenses, while a 14-24 f2.8 zoom is a lens that Pentax doesn't really have experience with in the past and probably is a tougher proposition. It is so tough to do these ultra wide angle zooms well and there are plenty of examples of wide angle zooms that are less than stellar. The Tamron is ranked up there with the Nikon 14-24 with regard to performance and I would be really pleased if Pentax used its formula rather than trying to create their own from scratch.
Well let say that covering 24-200 range is critical for any player, or at least the 28-135mm range. Theses are the most common and used focal length.

It might be that thees design are easier too, but there was so much investment to get theses things right that even if it was difficult... it has been there for a long time.

I think that if the 24-70 and 70-200 are fantastic knowing we already know the 150-450 is a great lense, I don't think that the quality of the 15-30 would be of very high importance to the echo system; Sure it is always better if it is great but we could be even do with tamron branded as tamron if necessary.

But if the most important lense, the 24-70 is a failure or just average, it will break the whole echosystem arround that FF.
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