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08-16-2015, 11:54 AM   #631
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
It was also my initial interpretation that they had not listed a price and were just asking for 800 as a deposit. However if you read all of Mistral75's translation you find: I don't interpret "about 2,000" as a WAG. If someone tells me the price will be "about 2,000" I would expect them to honor that price within 10% or so.

However, I think you misunderstood me. I remain skeptical of the entire offer as no other shop in the world (to my knowledge) has made any similar offer at any price. If indeed (and that to me is a very big if) the 2,000 price is close to correct and by close I mean within 200 I think it would be "very attractive". However, I still believe the MSRP will be closer to $3,000 usd perhaps more.
I'd counter that the most important part of Mistral75's translation is:

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
To buy this product you can can pre-order the Pentax Full Frame camera, pending payment of the remainder to be defined when available in stock.
[emphasis added]

Everyone's definition of "about" is going to be different. It may be +- 5% to some, or +- 30% to another. If you truly expect them to honor a sales price of no more than 2200, prepare to be disappointed. And I wouldn't expect anyone in authority ensure the transaction completes to your satisfaction (and definition of "about"). There can be no teeth in any financial transaction based on "about."

Take one step back and think about it. How can a camera shop in Spain know the FF camera MSRP 3/4 of a year before it's on the market. Ricoh didn't know the MSRP in February. The change in market conditions (what can we sell a FF camera of this specification for) 9 months out can vary by a lot more than 10%. The currency exchange rates even more.

I don't have any reason to think the shop hasn't collected the 800 from customers wanting to reserve there place in line for the new camera. Whether the customer will be pleased when the remainder of the deal is known (the amount "to be defined when available in stock") or whether they want to back out at that point remains to be seen.

08-16-2015, 12:44 PM   #632
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I can reasonably guess which people would be disappointed:
- those hoping it would be much cheaper than anything similar
- those hoping it would be anything other than a Pentax K-mount FF DSLR
- those hoping it would be a pro monster on the same level as the top of the range (and much more expensive) Canikon DSLRs

Besides that, it might be some spec or another (video?) which won't be "good enough" in the sense of a night-and-day difference from the current Pentax implementation (perhaps video?).

I'm certain I would be happy with it though.
It isn't mirrorless.
It isn't 24 mpx.
It isn't 32 mpx.
It isn't 42 mpx.
It isn't lighter than the K3
It is larger than the K3.
It doesn't have a built in flash.
It is black.
It is K mount.
It is built for right handed people.
It has an adjustable back screen.
It doesn't have an adjustable back screen.
It isn't cheaper than the D610.
It wasn't released a year ago.


Etc. There are lots of reasons why someone will be unhappy.
08-16-2015, 01:05 PM   #633
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
It wasn't released 15 years ago.

Etc. There are lots of reasons why someone will be unhappy.
This is what i can already hear from some PentaxIsDoomed or CaSoNikon supporters
08-16-2015, 03:56 PM   #634
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QuoteOriginally posted by virusn3t Quote
I believe $3299.99usd is not crazy for a state of art camera, but rather expensive in Pentax ecosystem. Just i want to know if the FF will be twice the price of the K3II, half the cost of a 645z or both
$3300 is a price which will ensure failure for two reasons: There's no track record of Pentax DSLR buyers willing to pay that kind of money (645 buyers are a rare and different breed) and there's no indication that Ricoh has caught up to Canon and Nikon on full system technology. The Pentax flash system is workable but not at the same level of the other guys and 3D C-AF tracking seems to be behind Nikon at least. Ricoh is still going to have to go after the value end of any comparably spec'd camera lineup.

08-16-2015, 05:15 PM   #635
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
$3300 is a price which will ensure failure for two reasons: There's no track record of Pentax DSLR buyers willing to pay that kind of money (645 buyers are a rare and different breed) and there's no indication that Ricoh has caught up to Canon and Nikon on full system technology. The Pentax flash system is workable but not at the same level of the other guys and 3D C-AF tracking seems to be behind Nikon at least. Ricoh is still going to have to go after the value end of any comparably spec'd camera lineup.
We will all see in a few months. But my feeling is the accepted vision of Pentax as a "value" brand is not going to apply to the FF line. There are lots of clues to this. Kenspo's continued comments that he is a pro and he did not sign up with Pentax for APS-C. The cost of the DFA*70-200 and DFA 150-450. There is no track record of Pentax users willing to pay $2,200 for a lens yet we have one. I have said many times before I do not think RIcoh is aiming the FF line at traditional (read current) Pentax users. They are focusing on attracting Pro photographers that want the best gear and can afford to pay for it. That will certainly include a lot of current users but I do not think "value" has any part in their thinking on this one. I think the APS-C line will continue at very competitive pricing and will be the "value" to attract users. The FF will be priced out of reach for many but will assure APS-C users that if they ever need it, the FF is there.

And Ricoh's definition of success may be vastly different than that held on this forum. They have stated several times, and so has Kenspo that this is a long term effort, short term thinking (such as the success or failure of any particular camera) is not valid. Think of a chess game, one move is just that, one move which sets up another move or one four moves later.

645 was a completely different situation. They found themselves with a bunch of 645 glass in inventory and the ability to deliver a camera @ $8,500 that both blows the competition out of the water and is profitable. This was possible because they really had no competition in this market segment except exotic cameras produced in low volume.

---------- Post added 08-16-15 at 05:18 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
Take one step back and think about it. How can a camera shop in Spain know the FF camera MSRP 3/4 of a year before it's on the market. Ricoh didn't know the MSRP in February. The change in market conditions (what can we sell a FF camera of this specification for) 9 months out can vary by a lot more than 10%. The currency exchange rates even more.
That was my point. They can't. All of my posts have simply been trying to say that this shop CANNOT know the actual release price as some others have said. The original post I replied to was stating the FF would cost 2,000 because this shop said it would. I disagreed. And apparently you do to, so why are we arguing about it?
08-16-2015, 06:32 PM   #636
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
That was my point. They can't. All of my posts have simply been trying to say that this shop CANNOT know the actual release price as some others have said. The original post I replied to was stating the FF would cost 2,000 because this shop said it would. I disagreed. And apparently you do to, so why are we arguing about it?
Ah, if that was your point, I do agree.
08-16-2015, 06:36 PM   #637
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
We will all see in a few months. But my feeling is the accepted vision of Pentax as a "value" brand is not going to apply to the FF line. There are lots of clues to this. Kenspo's continued comments that he is a pro and he did not sign up with Pentax for APS-C. The cost of the DFA*70-200 and DFA 150-450. There is no track record of Pentax users willing to pay $2,200 for a lens yet we have one. I have said many times before I do not think RIcoh is aiming the FF line at traditional (read current) Pentax users. They are focusing on attracting Pro photographers that want the best gear and can afford to pay for it. That will certainly include a lot of current users but I do not think "value" has any part in their thinking on this one. I think the APS-C line will continue at very competitive pricing and will be the "value" to attract users. The FF will be priced out of reach for many but will assure APS-C users that if they ever need it, the FF is there.

....
"Pro photographers that want the best gear and can afford to pay for it" are ones who are going to demand world-class flash systems and C-AF performance. I've seen nothing to suggest Ricoh is close on either of those two fronts, though C-AF might not be way behind anymore. This tells me it's foolish for Ricoh to make current non-Pentax users the initial target market. As for the $2200 fast zoom, it's hardly the only FF lens in the Pentax arsenal (not to mention all of the DA lenses that might be useful in a 1.2X crop mode). In fact, the DFA 70-200 isn't even in their arsenal yet.
08-16-2015, 07:16 PM   #638
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
are ones who are going to demand world-class flash systems and C-AF performance.
Not sure about that. I certainly don't. I use studio flash with wireless triggers as most studio photographers do, for inside work. Would love a built in RF wireless transmitter but no big deal. Pocket Wizard or Cactus work just fine. My only hotshoe flashes are a pair of Pentax AF200T's and a Nikon SB-26 neither of which have ever heard of P-TTL automation. And I don't use them on the hotshoe anyway. For outside work, I don't use flash at all. And I don't have any need for AF-C either, so they could have the best AF-C in the world and I would not care.

I get your point and those are things SOME pros' might require. But not all, by any means. Photography is more than sports and while that is an important category it is not one I have any interest in. I also said this is a long term project. We keep thinking Ricoh has to grow even with Canon or Nikon all in one swoop. They don't. They just have to work at continuous improvement and be willing to stay the course. Which they have demonstrated they are willing to do in other categories.

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
This tells me it's foolish for Ricoh to make current non-Pentax users the initial target market.
I never said that. I believe they will be targeting Pro photographers that want the best gear and can afford to pay for it. Not targeting non-Pentax users. I think they will be ignoring whether a potential customer is a Pentax user or not. What I am trying to say is that they will NOT be designing the FF line to fit the current "Pentax is a value brand" mentality. I think they will be attempting to move the Pentax user base in a different direction. Some will be happy with that, some will leave, new people will buy in. This is a 20 year project and progress might not be seen for years and years.




08-16-2015, 08:55 PM   #639
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
"Pro photographers that want the best gear and can afford to pay for it" are ones who are going to demand world-class flash systems and C-AF performance. I've seen nothing to suggest Ricoh is close on either of those two fronts, though C-AF might not be way behind anymore. This tells me it's foolish for Ricoh to make current non-Pentax users the initial target market. As for the $2200 fast zoom, it's hardly the only FF lens in the Pentax arsenal (not to mention all of the DA lenses that might be useful in a 1.2X crop mode). In fact, the DFA 70-200 isn't even in their arsenal yet.
I would wait to see what the offering looks like. The k3 competitors are not perfect, they have advantages and disadvantages, and the Pentax offering is very compelling for the money. I would expect something similar with the FF.
08-16-2015, 11:18 PM   #640
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
We will all see in a few months. But my feeling is the accepted vision of Pentax as a "value" brand is not going to apply to the FF line. There are lots of clues to this. Kenspo's continued comments that he is a pro and he did not sign up with Pentax for APS-C. The cost of the DFA*70-200 and DFA 150-450. There is no track record of Pentax users willing to pay $2,200 for a lens yet we have one. I have said many times before I do not think RIcoh is aiming the FF line at traditional (read current) Pentax users. They are focusing on attracting Pro photographers that want the best gear and can afford to pay for it. That will certainly include a lot of current users but I do not think "value" has any part in their thinking on this one. I think the APS-C line will continue at very competitive pricing and will be the "value" to attract users. The FF will be priced out of reach for many but will assure APS-C users that if they ever need it, the FF is there.

And Ricoh's definition of success may be vastly different than that held on this forum. They have stated several times, and so has Kenspo that this is a long term effort, short term thinking (such as the success or failure of any particular camera) is not valid. Think of a chess game, one move is just that, one move which sets up another move or one four moves later.

645 was a completely different situation. They found themselves with a bunch of 645 glass in inventory and the ability to deliver a camera @ $8,500 that both blows the competition out of the water and is profitable. This was possible because they really had no competition in this market segment except exotic cameras produced in low volume.

---------- Post added 08-16-15 at 05:18 PM ----------


That was my point. They can't. All of my posts have simply been trying to say that this shop CANNOT know the actual release price as some others have said. The original post I replied to was stating the FF would cost 2,000 because this shop said it would. I disagreed. And apparently you do to, so why are we arguing about it?
I fully agree.
Amongst the ones that will leave Pentax ship, are those who should have picked-up their Sony A7 or Nikon D600 or used Canon 5D years ago... with a maximum of 2 to 3 crap lenses.
08-17-2015, 12:10 AM - 1 Like   #641
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as jatrax said, i signed after seeing Pentax/Ricoh's short and long term plans. My task is clearly to attract more users over to Pentax, especially pro's. Their plan was to release a FF earlier, but they know they can't deliver anything but the best, so they will release the best possible FF soon, with the absolute newest technology (can't share details yet). Ricoh knows that i won't stay much longer on APS-C, since i work with a "handicap" in my type of photography. Im still rated amongst the best in my class, but its not easy when my "competition" are all using D4S and similar. So, that I'm still with Pentax, should tell you that something big is coming! I won't/can't confirm anything around a second FF, but you can just think about what is most logical. I know i will be "paid" for my patience. And the same for all Pentax users If i go back to Nikon, THEN you should be worried..lol
08-17-2015, 12:29 AM   #642
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
If i go back to Nikon, THEN you should be worried..lol
....

In that alternative, i would have it difficult avoiding instant infarct...
Haha
08-17-2015, 12:48 AM   #643
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hehehe
08-17-2015, 12:58 AM   #644
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when is soon? autumn 2015 or winter/spring 2016?
08-17-2015, 12:59 AM   #645
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Late october/early november. THIS year!
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