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08-17-2015, 01:16 AM   #646
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
...
It is larger than the K3.
It doesn't have a built in flash.
It has a built in flash
It is black.
...
(Just made a small addition :-) )

08-17-2015, 01:34 AM   #647
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
I won't/can't confirm anything around a second FF, but you can just think about what is most logical. I know i will be "paid" for my patience.
Of course, it's most logical that it will have unsurpassed AF speed, AF accuracy, metering at the lowest light levels possible, coupled with the lowest noise at highest ISO's (based on your previous work).
08-17-2015, 01:39 AM   #648
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
[...]Ricoh knows that i won't stay much longer on APS-C, since i work with a "handicap" in my type of photography. Im still rated amongst the best in my class, but its not easy when my "competition" are all using D4S and similar.[...]
And the 645z isn't an alternative?
08-17-2015, 01:42 AM   #649
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
We will all see in a few months. But my feeling is the accepted vision of Pentax as a "value" brand is not going to apply to the FF line. There are lots of clues to this. Kenspo's continued comments that he is a pro and he did not sign up with Pentax for APS-C. The cost of the DFA*70-200 and DFA 150-450. There is no track record of Pentax users willing to pay $2,200 for a lens yet we have one. I have said many times before I do not think RIcoh is aiming the FF line at traditional (read current) Pentax users. They are focusing on attracting Pro photographers that want the best gear and can afford to pay for it. That will certainly include a lot of current users but I do not think "value" has any part in their thinking on this one. I think the APS-C line will continue at very competitive pricing and will be the "value" to attract users. The FF will be priced out of reach for many but will assure APS-C users that if they ever need it, the FF is there.

And Ricoh's definition of success may be vastly different than that held on this forum. They have stated several times, and so has Kenspo that this is a long term effort, short term thinking (such as the success or failure of any particular camera) is not valid. Think of a chess game, one move is just that, one move which sets up another move or one four moves later.

645 was a completely different situation. They found themselves with a bunch of 645 glass in inventory and the ability to deliver a camera @ $8,500 that both blows the competition out of the water and is profitable. This was possible because they really had no competition in this market segment except exotic cameras produced in low volume.

---------- Post added 08-16-15 at 05:18 PM ----------


That was my point. They can't. All of my posts have simply been trying to say that this shop CANNOT know the actual release price as some others have said. The original post I replied to was stating the FF would cost 2,000€ because this shop said it would. I disagreed. And apparently you do to, so why are we arguing about it?
Pentax as an alternative becomes credible to a wider audience (i.e., to buyers new to the brand) when the performance level between the brands in competition with one another is about equal (when comparing comparable cameras of course). So, for example, if you want to photograph social occasions chances are you'll need competent AF, good flash, good high ISO and suitable lenses. You won't be considering sports or landscape cameras; even though they could do it, they are not the ideal choice and may involve penalties such as size or cost. At that point all the elements that make one brand an alternative choice come to the fore: it meets the requirements competently, which is vital, but in what way does it exceed them or offering something more or a different way of going about it all?

My guess is that this is the point Ricoh is trying to reach with the FF while realizing that building an FF platform is a work of many years. Ricoh don't need to storm the ramparts with their first FF camera. They just need to make sure they are seen as a credible alternative choice and are not seen as an inferior choice in terms of the tech, IQ, build quality and so forth on offer. A solid rep for delivering the goods is something subsequent cameras can build on but only if the first move in the chess game does just that. Making your only plus a smaller price on the sticker is a certain road to ruin. At the lower end, another mug will always offer something cheaper while at the higher end buyers want the best and are prepared to pay for it.


Last edited by mecrox; 08-17-2015 at 03:33 AM.
08-17-2015, 02:00 AM   #650
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Amongst the ones that will leave Pentax ship, are those who should have picked-up their Sony A7 or Nikon D600 or used Canon 5D years ago... with a maximum of 2 to 3 crap lenses.
I did pick up my used Canon 5D years ago, but I have way more than three crappy lenses for it! And three nice lenses too. That doesn't mean I intend (or ever intended) to leave Pentax.
08-17-2015, 02:08 AM   #651
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Of course, it's most logical that it will have unsurpassed AF speed, AF accuracy, metering at the lowest light levels possible, coupled with the lowest noise at highest ISO's (based on your previous work).


QuoteOriginally posted by deus ursus Quote
And the 645z isn't an alternative?
For over 90% of my work, no
08-17-2015, 02:34 AM   #652
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Not sure about that. I certainly don't...
A key aspect of the gear to me is that the usage can be very different from users to users. You need to have many features that may appeal or be usefull in a few situations but as a whole this ensure your camera is adequate for most tasks one may have to do with it.

So the camera should be great for studio photography. But it should be good also for street photography, landscapes, macro, fashion, journalism, sports, wildlife, product photography, low light, astrophotography, weddings ...

So if the AF-C is not that great, that a drawback for sport, wildlife, weddings and also annoying for several other area. You loose a good share of the sports/wildlife/weddings pro so that already a huge drawback by itself, and while you may not loose say studio shooters or landscapers... This can be considered as anoying from time to time for fashion or journalism... Worse if somebody make money as a photojournalist but don't want to close the possibilities for occasionnal use he might not buy the gear because it miss the feature.
08-17-2015, 02:47 AM   #653
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
A key aspect of the gear to me is that the usage can be very different from users to users. You need to have many features that may appeal or be usefull in a few situations but as a whole this ensure your camera is adequate for most tasks one may have to do with it.

So the camera should be great for studio photography. But it should be good also for street photography, landscapes, macro, fashion, journalism, sports, wildlife, product photography, low light, astrophotography, weddings ...

So if the AF-C is not that great, that a drawback for sport, wildlife, weddings and also annoying for several other area. You loose a good share of the sports/wildlife/weddings pro so that already a huge drawback by itself, and while you may not loose say studio shooters or landscapers... This can be considered as anoying from time to time for fashion or journalism... Worse if somebody make money as a photojournalist but don't want to close the possibilities for occasionnal use he might not buy the gear because it miss the feature.
I'd have thought the main drawback is that if you don't devote resources to putting your product in front of people they won't even realize it's there. When I look at some other forums, it's as if Pentax does not exist being rarely mentioned. That is not consistent at all with the (good) quality of their products but is more the result, imho, of their being so silent as to be almost a hidden cult. The FF might be a superb camera and I very much hope it is but without a serious marketing push it won't gain any traction. A brand is going to lose a good share of any market if people know so little about it that they never put it on their list for consideration.


Last edited by mecrox; 08-17-2015 at 03:18 AM.
08-17-2015, 03:20 AM   #654
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
weddings pro
Many wedding pros (the largest photo pro sector, I think) use the Canon 6D a lot, with it's modest 11 AF points (1 cross-type) and 4.5 fps. And hardly any AF-C worth speaking of. But they love the low-light AF performance and the excellent high ISO dynamic range, combined with Canon's great range of lenses and flash system. And while 6D has limitations, many pros may have a 5D3 (or even a 7DII) shooting alongside the 6D to cover those.

That system factor may be part of the success equation for the Pentax FF. One probably shouldn't expect the FF body to be a mighty dreadnought, able to go into battle alone, performing all tasks and vanquishing rivals, without effective support from the rest of the Pentax system.
08-17-2015, 03:30 AM   #655
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Many wedding pros (the largest photo pro sector, I think) use the Canon 6D a lot, with it's modest 11 AF points (1 cross-type) and 4.5 fps. And hardly any AF-C worth speaking of. But they love the low-light AF performance and the excellent high ISO dynamic range, combined with Canon's great range of lenses and flash system. And while 6D has limitations, many pros may have a 5D3 (or even a 7DII) shooting alongside the 6D to cover those.

That system factor may be part of the success equation for the Pentax FF. One probably shouldn't expect the FF body to be a mighty dreadnought, able to go into battle alone, performing all tasks and vanquishing rivals, without effective support from the rest of the Pentax system.
A lot depends on how Pentax chooses to price it. If it is priced below 2000, then I doubt it needs top of the line auto focus. On the other hand, if it is priced north of 2500 dollars (I expect it will be) then it had better be competitive with the auto focus on D810/D750 type cameras, both with regard to AF-S and tracking focus.
08-17-2015, 03:55 AM   #656
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Many wedding pros (the largest photo pro sector, I think) use the Canon 6D a lot, with it's modest 11 AF points (1 cross-type) and 4.5 fps. And hardly any AF-C worth speaking of. But they love the low-light AF performance and the excellent high ISO dynamic range, combined with Canon's great range of lenses and flash system. And while 6D has limitations, many pros may have a 5D3 (or even a 7DII) shooting alongside the 6D to cover those.

That system factor may be part of the success equation for the Pentax FF. One probably shouldn't expect the FF body to be a mighty dreadnought, able to go into battle alone, performing all tasks and vanquishing rivals, without effective support from the rest of the Pentax system.
The problem is Pentax design its FF to be a second body and has no first body available, it will not work very well as a strategy. It can work if they plan to have 2 bodies quite soon, an entry level FF and a mighty dreadnought FF.
08-17-2015, 04:52 AM   #657
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Late october/early november. THIS year!
...just ahead of the Salon de la Photo in Paris .

08-17-2015, 05:55 AM   #658
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Hide me that horrible APS-C Canikon stuff !!!
08-17-2015, 06:00 AM   #659
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
...just ahead of the Salon de la Photo in Paris .
NYC PhotoPlus Expo 2015 - 22-24, October - don't forget
Ricoh will have the booth there
08-17-2015, 06:22 AM - 2 Likes   #660
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I have no idea why anyone think That Ricoh has to be the best camera at all things. They should (as in 2012) just bring a good camera to the market that is of current state and technology. Nothing more and nothing less.
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