3 Rumors

**monochrome** · 08-16-2015, 05:01 AM

The distinction of how Hoya dismissed him from association with Pentax, whether he was a salaried employee, exclusive contractor or even frequent individual contractor isn't really relevant. The important question is whether Hoya ended the association merely to save money, and whether, should Ricoh choose, he can be engaged for lens design in the future (or is he exclusively engaged with Tamron now).

Last edited by monochrome; 08-16-2015 at 05:55 AM.

**jatrax** · 08-16-2015, 07:32 AM

@Mistral75 Thank you very much for taking the time to translate that.

Since they are (AFAIK) the only place to take pre-orders much less name an approximate price I will reserve some skepticism. However, a 2,000€ price is very attractive. And if the Spanish price includes 21% VAT? Then USD price might be $1,600 plus local sales tax. For some reason that seems too low to be the FF with all the nice things we expect. Maybe that is the price for the low-end FF rumored yesterday and the flagship will be more?

cfraz · 08-16-2015, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by jatrax

@Mistral75 Thank you very much for taking the time to translate that.

Since they are (AFAIK) the only place to take pre-orders much less name an approximate price I will reserve some skepticism. However, a 2,000€ price is very attractive. And if the Spanish price includes 21% VAT? Then USD price might be $1,600 plus local sales tax. For some reason that seems too low to be the FF with all the nice things we expect. Maybe that is the price for the low-end FF rumored yesterday and the flagship will be more?

Sceptical of what? You take a leap way too large when going from about 2,000€ to "2,000€ is very attractive." 2,000€ is just their WAG.

Here is what "about 2,000€" means in terms of exchanging goods for money: Absolutely nothing.

The store is simply saying give us 800€ now to reserve a spot in line for when the cameras arrive. You have to pay the balance to complete the transaction AND we aren't telling you what the balance will be because we don't know. Interpreting this offer in any other way is simply not justified, or prudent. Note also they don't seem to say what happens to your 800€ if the FF never arrives. Or if you die before then. Or if your house falls down and you really need the money back.

Zygonyx · 08-16-2015, 09:12 AM

This above-mentionned Pentaxeros proposal has been online since beginning of february, 2015 ; only a few days after CP+ announcement.
I give it the credit of a 5th rank rumor re. future selling price, whilst i wouldn't myself pre-order anything without even knowing any specification.
This is at worst some kind of theft, at best absolute fanboyism for me ; and i don't see any interest nor credibility in that action.

**jatrax** · 08-16-2015, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by cfraz

Sceptical of what? You take a leap way too large when going from about 2,000€ to "2,000€ is very attractive." 2,000€ is just their WAG. Here is what "about 2,000€" means in terms of exchanging goods for money: Absolutely nothing. The store is simply saying give us 800€ now to reserve a spot in line for when the cameras arrive. You have to pay the balance to complete the transaction AND we aren't telling you what the balance will be because we don't know.

It was also my initial interpretation that they had not listed a price and were just asking for 800€ as a deposit. However if you read all of Mistral75's translation you find:

Originally posted by Mistral75

which can be translated as follows: "Prices, Buy Pentax Full Frame camera The new Pentax Full Frame camera will be available in October 2015. The sale price is about €2,000 body only. You can pre-order the Pentax Full Frame camera (body only) in Pentaxeros Shop."

I don't interpret "about 2,000€" as a WAG. If someone tells me the price will be "about 2,000€" I would expect them to honor that price within 10% or so.

However, I think you misunderstood me. I remain skeptical of the entire offer as no other shop in the world (to my knowledge) has made any similar offer at any price. If indeed (and that to me is a very big if) the 2,000€ price is close to correct and by close I mean within 200€ I think it would be "very attractive". However, I still believe the MSRP will be closer to $3,000 usd perhaps more.

btnapa · 08-16-2015, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by jatrax

It was also my initial interpretation that they had not listed a price and were just asking for 800€ as a deposit. However if you read all of Mistral75's translation you find: I don't interpret "about 2,000€" as a WAG. If someone tells me the price will be "about 2,000€" I would expect them to honor that price within 10% or so.

However, I think you misunderstood me. I remain skeptical of the entire offer as no other shop in the world (to my knowledge) has made any similar offer at any price. If indeed (and that to me is a very big if) the 2,000€ price is close to correct and by close I mean within 200€ I think it would be "very attractive". However, I still believe the MSRP will be closer to $3,000 usd perhaps more.

My calculations lead me to a price of $1,200-1,500 for an entry level FF and $2,200-2,500 for the flagship model. They cannot price it too high if they want people to not jump ship. Make it close to $3k and you are in the Sony A7RII territory.

**jatrax** · 08-16-2015, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by btnapa

My calculations lead me to a price of $1,200-1,500 for an entry level FF and $2,200-2,500 for the flagship model.

How do you calculate that? Curious about your thought process. Entry level FF is a new thing to me, just rumored in the last few days so I've no idea. But $1,200 seems crazy low. D750 is $2,299, D610 is $1,496.

My calculations on flagship say $3,299 MSRP with discounts to below $3,000 once initial surge has passed.

**monochrome** · 08-16-2015, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by btnapa

My calculations lead me to a price of $1,200-1,500 for an entry level FF and $2,200-2,500 for the flagship model. They cannot price it too high if they want people to not jump ship. Make it close to $3k and you are in the Sony A7RII territory.

Listing a dollar price speculation is meaningless until you also list what specifications you are pricing at your speculative price.

IS it similar in spec. to:

D610?
D750?
D810?
5D MkIII?
5-DS?
1-D?

virusn3t · 08-16-2015, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by jatrax

How do you calculate that? Curious about your thought process. Entry level FF is a new thing to me, just rumored in the last few days so I've no idea. But $1,200 seems crazy low. D750 is $2,299, D610 is $1,496.

My calculations on flagship say $3,299 MSRP with discounts to below $3,000 once initial surge has passed.

I believe $3299.99usd is not crazy for a state of art camera, but rather expensive in Pentax ecosystem. Just i want to know if the FF will be twice the price of the K3II, half the cost of a 645z or both

**MJSfoto1956** · 08-16-2015, 10:30 AM

The consistent theme with Pentax is value: their MF offering is way below any competition and encroaches into high-end FF territory. The K-3 offers a pro-level body at much less than its purported competition (a7000, 7D, D7200, etc.). I would be surprised if their FF would not be priced at a similar value point vis a vis the competition e.g. D810 features at a D610 price point.

M

**monochrome** · 08-16-2015, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by MJSfoto1956

e.g. D810 features at a D610 price point.

I think you are setting tourself (and the Forum) up for a disappointment. D810 competitive features slightly above D750 price point maybe. Your thinking probably isn't financially possible and actually would run counter to a good marketing decision. If it is true Pentax wants pro's to sit up and take notice, price competition with the D610 might actually hurt.

I think the camera body will be good value at its feature set level and they'll make their money on the lenses. Remember, Pentax buyers don't pay for the Super Bowl ads, television ads, Dealer financing, lavish Dealer support and salesmen and everything else marketing-related with every body and lens they buy. Pentax has some pricing flexibility, but not that much. Ricoh doesn't get the retail price at the factory door - they get something like 50% to 60% of retail. So they'd need to make a profit selling D810 parts for $750 out the back door. I don't think so.

Kenspo says the FF will be professional quality, and some people here will be disappointed. I can't think of anything the Forum would be unhappy about other than the price.

**MJSfoto1956** · 08-16-2015, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

I think you are setting tourself (and the Forum) up for a disappointment. D810 competitive features slightly above D750 price point maybe. Your thinking probably isn't financially possible and actually would run counter to a good marketing decision. If it is true Pentax wants pro's to sit up and take notice, price competition with the D610 might actually hurt.

You might be right. But then again, they said the same thing about MF -- and Pentax proved everyone wrong. Frankly, without a bunch of new HD FF primes (and some wide WR zooms in the range of 14-24mm or 16-35mm) it is going to be difficult to get terribly excited about the forthcoming FF body without a comprehensive "system" behind it. Perhaps that might be the real news: a slew of secret FF lenses?

M

MadMathMind · 08-16-2015, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

he can be engaged for lens design in the future (or is he exclusively engaged with Tamron now).

Anyone can be engaged for the right price. Whether that would be worth it to Pentax would depend on how much Tamron values him at the moment.

Kunzite · 08-16-2015, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Kenspo says the FF will be professional quality, and some people here will be disappointed. I can't think of anything the Forum would be unhappy about other than the price.

I can reasonably guess which people would be disappointed:
- those hoping it would be much cheaper than anything similar
- those hoping it would be anything other than a Pentax K-mount FF DSLR
- those hoping it would be a pro monster on the same level as the top of the range (and much more expensive) Canikon DSLRs

Besides that, it might be some spec or another (video?) which won't be "good enough" in the sense of a night-and-day difference from the current Pentax implementation (perhaps video?).

I'm certain I would be happy with it though.

**monochrome** · 08-16-2015, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by MJSfoto1956

You might be right. But then again, they said the same thing about MF -- and Pentax proved everyone wrong.

As you well know, good as the 645Z is - it's a K-3 with dual processors and a big sensor. The market gap was just sitting there waiting for someone to fill it. The only real reason Pentax could fill it was, Pentax already had an inventory of FA645 lenses to sell with it.

Originally posted by MJSfoto1956

Frankly, without a bunch of new HD FF primes (and some wide WR zooms in the range of 14-24mm or 16-35mm) it is going to be difficult to get terribly excited about the forthcoming FF body without a comprehensive "system" behind it. Perhaps that might be the real news: a slew of secret FF lenses?

M

I think the 'bunch of HD FF primes' coming in 2016 is pretty well accepted here. As is the pro grade (D-FA*) 24~70 to complement the 70~200.

08-16-2015, 10:23 AM	#623
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by btnapa My calculations lead me to a price of $1,200-1,500 for an entry level FF and $2,200-2,500 for the flagship model. They cannot price it too high if they want people to not jump ship. Make it close to $3k and you are in the Sony A7RII territory. Listing a dollar price speculation is meaningless until you also list what specifications you are pricing at your speculative price. IS it similar in spec. to: D610? D750? D810? 5D MkIII? 5-DS? 1-D?

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08-16-2015, 05:01 AM	#616
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	The distinction of how Hoya dismissed him from association with Pentax, whether he was a salaried employee, exclusive contractor or even frequent individual contractor isn't really relevant. The important question is whether Hoya ended the association merely to save money, and whether, should Ricoh choose, he can be engaged for lens design in the future (or is he exclusively engaged with Tamron now). Last edited by monochrome; 08-16-2015 at 05:55 AM.

08-16-2015, 07:32 AM	#617
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	@Mistral75 Thank you very much for taking the time to translate that. Since they are (AFAIK) the only place to take pre-orders much less name an approximate price I will reserve some skepticism. However, a 2,000€ price is very attractive. And if the Spanish price includes 21% VAT? Then USD price might be $1,600 plus local sales tax. For some reason that seems too low to be the FF with all the nice things we expect. Maybe that is the price for the low-end FF rumored yesterday and the flagship will be more?

08-16-2015, 08:08 AM	#618
cfraz Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 521	Originally posted by jatrax @Mistral75 Thank you very much for taking the time to translate that. Since they are (AFAIK) the only place to take pre-orders much less name an approximate price I will reserve some skepticism. However, a 2,000€ price is very attractive. And if the Spanish price includes 21% VAT? Then USD price might be $1,600 plus local sales tax. For some reason that seems too low to be the FF with all the nice things we expect. Maybe that is the price for the low-end FF rumored yesterday and the flagship will be more? Sceptical of what? You take a leap way too large when going from about 2,000€ to "2,000€ is very attractive." 2,000€ is just their WAG. Here is what "about 2,000€" means in terms of exchanging goods for money: Absolutely nothing. The store is simply saying give us 800€ now to reserve a spot in line for when the cameras arrive. You have to pay the balance to complete the transaction AND we aren't telling you what the balance will be because we don't know. Interpreting this offer in any other way is simply not justified, or prudent. Note also they don't seem to say what happens to your 800€ if the FF never arrives. Or if you die before then. Or if your house falls down and you really need the money back.

08-16-2015, 09:12 AM	#619
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	This above-mentionned Pentaxeros proposal has been online since beginning of february, 2015 ; only a few days after CP+ announcement. I give it the credit of a 5th rank rumor re. future selling price, whilst i wouldn't myself pre-order anything without even knowing any specification. This is at worst some kind of theft, at best absolute fanboyism for me ; and i don't see any interest nor credibility in that action.

08-16-2015, 09:13 AM	#620
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by cfraz Sceptical of what? You take a leap way too large when going from about 2,000€ to "2,000€ is very attractive." 2,000€ is just their WAG. Here is what "about 2,000€" means in terms of exchanging goods for money: Absolutely nothing. The store is simply saying give us 800€ now to reserve a spot in line for when the cameras arrive. You have to pay the balance to complete the transaction AND we aren't telling you what the balance will be because we don't know. It was also my initial interpretation that they had not listed a price and were just asking for 800€ as a deposit. However if you read all of Mistral75's translation you find: Originally posted by Mistral75 which can be translated as follows: "Prices, Buy Pentax Full Frame camera The new Pentax Full Frame camera will be available in October 2015. The sale price is about €2,000 body only. You can pre-order the Pentax Full Frame camera (body only) in Pentaxeros Shop." I don't interpret "about 2,000€" as a WAG. If someone tells me the price will be "about 2,000€" I would expect them to honor that price within 10% or so. However, I think you misunderstood me. I remain skeptical of the entire offer as no other shop in the world (to my knowledge) has made any similar offer at any price. If indeed (and that to me is a very big if) the 2,000€ price is close to correct and by close I mean within 200€ I think it would be "very attractive". However, I still believe the MSRP will be closer to $3,000 usd perhaps more.

08-16-2015, 09:20 AM	#621
btnapa Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,616	Originally posted by jatrax It was also my initial interpretation that they had not listed a price and were just asking for 800€ as a deposit. However if you read all of Mistral75's translation you find: I don't interpret "about 2,000€" as a WAG. If someone tells me the price will be "about 2,000€" I would expect them to honor that price within 10% or so. However, I think you misunderstood me. I remain skeptical of the entire offer as no other shop in the world (to my knowledge) has made any similar offer at any price. If indeed (and that to me is a very big if) the 2,000€ price is close to correct and by close I mean within 200€ I think it would be "very attractive". However, I still believe the MSRP will be closer to $3,000 usd perhaps more. My calculations lead me to a price of $1,200-1,500 for an entry level FF and $2,200-2,500 for the flagship model. They cannot price it too high if they want people to not jump ship. Make it close to $3k and you are in the Sony A7RII territory.

08-16-2015, 10:17 AM	#622
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by btnapa My calculations lead me to a price of $1,200-1,500 for an entry level FF and $2,200-2,500 for the flagship model. How do you calculate that? Curious about your thought process. Entry level FF is a new thing to me, just rumored in the last few days so I've no idea. But $1,200 seems crazy low. D750 is $2,299, D610 is $1,496. My calculations on flagship say $3,299 MSRP with discounts to below $3,000 once initial surge has passed.

08-16-2015, 10:26 AM	#624
virusn3t Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 676	Originally posted by jatrax How do you calculate that? Curious about your thought process. Entry level FF is a new thing to me, just rumored in the last few days so I've no idea. But $1,200 seems crazy low. D750 is $2,299, D610 is $1,496. My calculations on flagship say $3,299 MSRP with discounts to below $3,000 once initial surge has passed. I believe $3299.99usd is not crazy for a state of art camera, but rather expensive in Pentax ecosystem. Just i want to know if the FF will be twice the price of the K3II, half the cost of a 645z or both

08-16-2015, 10:30 AM	#625
MJSfoto1956 Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Boston Posts: 1,305	The consistent theme with Pentax is value: their MF offering is way below any competition and encroaches into high-end FF territory. The K-3 offers a pro-level body at much less than its purported competition (a7000, 7D, D7200, etc.). I would be surprised if their FF would not be priced at a similar value point vis a vis the competition e.g. D810 features at a D610 price point. M

08-16-2015, 10:39 AM	#626
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by MJSfoto1956 e.g. D810 features at a D610 price point. I think you are setting tourself (and the Forum) up for a disappointment. D810 competitive features slightly above D750 price point maybe. Your thinking probably isn't financially possible and actually would run counter to a good marketing decision. If it is true Pentax wants pro's to sit up and take notice, price competition with the D610 might actually hurt. I think the camera body will be good value at its feature set level and they'll make their money on the lenses. Remember, Pentax buyers don't pay for the Super Bowl ads, television ads, Dealer financing, lavish Dealer support and salesmen and everything else marketing-related with every body and lens they buy. Pentax has some pricing flexibility, but not that much. Ricoh doesn't get the retail price at the factory door - they get something like 50% to 60% of retail. So they'd need to make a profit selling D810 parts for $750 out the back door. I don't think so. Kenspo says the FF will be professional quality, and some people here will be disappointed. I can't think of anything the Forum would be unhappy about other than the price.

08-16-2015, 10:51 AM	#627
MJSfoto1956 Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Boston Posts: 1,305	Originally posted by monochrome I think you are setting tourself (and the Forum) up for a disappointment. D810 competitive features slightly above D750 price point maybe. Your thinking probably isn't financially possible and actually would run counter to a good marketing decision. If it is true Pentax wants pro's to sit up and take notice, price competition with the D610 might actually hurt. You might be right. But then again, they said the same thing about MF -- and Pentax proved everyone wrong. Frankly, without a bunch of new HD FF primes (and some wide WR zooms in the range of 14-24mm or 16-35mm) it is going to be difficult to get terribly excited about the forthcoming FF body without a comprehensive "system" behind it. Perhaps that might be the real news: a slew of secret FF lenses? M

08-16-2015, 11:10 AM	#628
MadMathMind Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Houston, TX Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,717	Originally posted by monochrome he can be engaged for lens design in the future (or is he exclusively engaged with Tamron now). Anyone can be engaged for the right price. Whether that would be worth it to Pentax would depend on how much Tamron values him at the moment.

08-16-2015, 11:12 AM	#629
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by monochrome Kenspo says the FF will be professional quality, and some people here will be disappointed. I can't think of anything the Forum would be unhappy about other than the price. I can reasonably guess which people would be disappointed: - those hoping it would be much cheaper than anything similar - those hoping it would be anything other than a Pentax K-mount FF DSLR - those hoping it would be a pro monster on the same level as the top of the range (and much more expensive) Canikon DSLRs Besides that, it might be some spec or another (video?) which won't be "good enough" in the sense of a night-and-day difference from the current Pentax implementation (perhaps video?). I'm certain I would be happy with it though.

08-16-2015, 11:29 AM	#630
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by MJSfoto1956 You might be right. But then again, they said the same thing about MF -- and Pentax proved everyone wrong. As you well know, good as the 645Z is - it's a K-3 with dual processors and a big sensor. The market gap was just sitting there waiting for someone to fill it. The only real reason Pentax could fill it was, Pentax already had an inventory of FA645 lenses to sell with it. Originally posted by MJSfoto1956 Frankly, without a bunch of new HD FF primes (and some wide WR zooms in the range of 14-24mm or 16-35mm) it is going to be difficult to get terribly excited about the forthcoming FF body without a comprehensive "system" behind it. Perhaps that might be the real news: a slew of secret FF lenses? M I think the 'bunch of HD FF primes' coming in 2016 is pretty well accepted here. As is the pro grade (D-FA*) 24~70 to complement the 70~200.