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07-28-2015, 02:10 AM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
My local utility currently charges me what it costs them to deliver the water to my home.
True, washing machines quite do not work for as long as they did but they really do not eat water and electrons the way they used to either.
In the end, I'm not sure we lose.

07-28-2015, 02:57 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
You will when they start charging you a market rate for your water!

But cameras have gone in the other direction.
With digital, we no longer have to pay real money for every new piece of film exposed.
You know I just checked... For now the price in water 1 cycle is between 0.15 and 0.3$ on a typicall washing machine... At least were I live.

Even if the best washing machine make me gain 0.1$ compared to that because water suddenly become more expensive, for my usage, that's at most 5-10$/year for me. For somebody doing 1 cycle a day, that's maybe 30-40$ a year.

That 20-30 years to make the thing just at equilibrium and by that time your new washing machine might very well fail anyway. From an economic perspective, this is not at all interresting... There so many things that would have greater effect that in term of priority this should be put at the very very bottom of things to do.
07-28-2015, 04:43 AM   #198
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I think they will announce a new aps-c when they release the new FF, when they release the new aps-c will they announce a lower model FF?
07-28-2015, 05:40 AM   #199
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Probably so, but it should take some/few months if not a year to go ?

07-28-2015, 06:22 AM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
My local utility currently charges me what it costs them to deliver the water to my home.
You may be OK for a while, with Lake Michigan full,
but more and more places in the world are starting to run short of water.
07-28-2015, 06:30 AM - 1 Like   #201
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Killing two birds with one stone - my hope is that the new full frame camera has sufficient resolution like the Canon 5DS that makes the" reach of the crop factor" irrelevant, has a mode to accommodate APS-C lenses and I can by one camera to satisfy all needs. While it would be more expensive, not that expensive relative to what I have invested in lenses and would invest in future lenses. Also vital is auto focus as good as or better than what is available from Nikon and Canon. No matter what the sensor if you cannot capture the moment the sensor type, size, noise handling blah blah blah are all unimportant. For those Pentax shooters interested in wildlife photography too many opportunities are lost to poor auto focus performance. In my case I know I have spent hours photographing wildlife, hours and money traveling to wildlife locations only to have my Pentax camera in search mode when the opportunity arises.
07-28-2015, 06:56 AM   #202
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Well bob, i think you should try DFA150-450mm + K-3 or K-3 II.
07-28-2015, 07:17 AM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Well bob, i think you should try DFA150-450mm + K-3 or K-3 II.
YES INDEED That lens is on my list to buy - I read this review https://www.ephotozine.com/article/pentax-hd-pentax-d-fa-150-450mm-f-4-5-5-6...w-review-27359 and it shows excellent resolution all the way to 450mm with f8 as the sweet spot. I just spent two days at Chincoteque and got some very good results with the K3 and Sigma 500. However we had a great morning outing when a bunch of Skimmers feed close to use. These relative small birds travel at high speed and dip their lower mandible in the water. There were four shooters from our camera club on the outing, with me the sole Pentax shooter. I got zero shots worth keeping. While Nikon and Canon shooters locked on to the birds, the K3 had difficulty finding them. It was early morning and not a lot of contrast. That was two days of travel and two nights in a hotel. I got some very nice pictures but nothing worthwhile with the skimmers. Granted some of this was me but I have had this same experience whether shooting skimmers or eagles fishing. Even a blind squirrel gets an acorn once in awhile. While wildlife is my main focus now that wasn't the case when I bought my K5. The K3 is a great improvement. Ricoh has saved Pentax as witnessed by the product introductions including the 1.4TC, the 150-450 and others. The next generation of DSLR's should bring big auto focus improvements just to be competitive. However I am holding off any purchases until the new cameras are out, and auto focus is reviewed in comparison to Nikon and Canon auto focus. I am optimistic since this is really the first camera designed from the ground up by Ricoh/Pentax and in past interviews and published articles Pentax has had the goal of the best auto focus available. A few more months is not a long time to wait to make sure that superb auto focus for Pentax shooters has arrived. If I go on an extended trip between now and then I will probably rent the 150-450 - it looks like a great lens to travel with when how much stuff you take is important.

08-06-2015, 03:15 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
This is true especially as the mass of the sensor assembly increases with at most the square of the image circle only, not its third power.
Wrong.

---------- Post added 07-08-15 at 00:17 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
The increase in mass can also mean it is slower to react to fast, even if small movements. I am not convinced, they would at least have to rework the SR system, and if they implement those improvements to the APS-C cameras the SR there should be even better.
Exactly.
08-06-2015, 03:37 PM - 1 Like   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Wrong.

---------- Post added 07-08-15 at 00:17 ----------


Exactly.
better say nothing at all
08-06-2015, 05:21 PM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Wrong.

---------- Post added 07-08-15 at 00:17 ----------


Exactly.

"Wrong" why? Is there math to support your position? If there is something to be learned please help others learn.
08-06-2015, 11:34 PM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by woodywesty Quote
"Wrong" why? Is there math to support your position? If there is something to be learned please help others learn.
Because the statement above assumes that the SR is an open-loop system. In additional, there is not consideration of sensor resolution (pixel size), where if you get a larger sensor with more MP, the point if to get the increase of resolution that the FF sensor provides you with. Scaling-up everything does not work without involving further stability tradeoffs. So, for an SR performance of 4.5 stops on K-3, and equivalent system would perform 3 stops with a FF sensor (assuming that the mass of the sensor block doubled, and pixel pitch the same as K-3, i.e when using a crop mode on FF with a supertelelens). Sony A7II claims 4.5 stop of IBIS, but pixel pitch is larger than K-3 APSc sensor, so 4.5 stops of IBIS on A7II is equivalent to 3 stops of IBIS perf on K-3. In other words, if K-3 best IBIS perf. is 4.5 stop, IBIS best perf. would be 3 stops on FF sensor having the same pixel pitch. Of course , how much IQ is enough for printing and whether we can see the difference between 4.5 stop APSC IBIS and 3 stop FF IBIS without pixel peeping is another thing. But if looking at images @ 100%, and same pixel pitch , if APSC IBIS is 4.5 stops, FF IBIS is 3 stops. As the sensor size increases, more benefit goes to optical stabilization in the lenses.
08-07-2015, 02:56 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Because the statement above assumes that the SR is an open-loop system. In additional, there is not consideration of sensor resolution (pixel size), where if you get a larger sensor with more MP, the point if to get the increase of resolution that the FF sensor provides you with. Scaling-up everything does not work without involving further stability tradeoffs. So, for an SR performance of 4.5 stops on K-3, and equivalent system would perform 3 stops with a FF sensor (assuming that the mass of the sensor block doubled, and pixel pitch the same as K-3, i.e when using a crop mode on FF with a supertelelens). Sony A7II claims 4.5 stop of IBIS, but pixel pitch is larger than K-3 APSc sensor, so 4.5 stops of IBIS on A7II is equivalent to 3 stops of IBIS perf on K-3. In other words, if K-3 best IBIS perf. is 4.5 stop, IBIS best perf. would be 3 stops on FF sensor having the same pixel pitch. Of course , how much IQ is enough for printing and whether we can see the difference between 4.5 stop APSC IBIS and 3 stop FF IBIS without pixel peeping is another thing. But if looking at images @ 100%, and same pixel pitch , if APSC IBIS is 4.5 stops, FF IBIS is 3 stops. As the sensor size increases, more benefit goes to optical stabilization in the lenses.
You mix two things, resolution and sensor size.

Higher resolution requires faster shutter speed for pixel perfect images, both with or without image stabilization, but I don't think that will affect the effectiveness of the image stabilization it self as you compare what you can get without stabilization with what you get with stabilization. You will get the same amount of image stabilization, but you might not be able to use as long shutter speeds with higher resolution as if using a camera with lower resolution if you want the same amount of blur on pixel level. But is the same independent of sensor size.

Using a APS-C sensor means that SR movements has to be smaller and with higher precision compared to FF. Which is more difficult to design I can't to say, but I don't think the difference between APS-C and FF sensors is very big when it comes to this. On small sensor camera like Pentax Q it doesn't seems like Pentax get any benefit of the smaller sensor in SR effectiveness compared to APS-C.
08-07-2015, 03:43 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
You mix two things, resolution and sensor size.
Yes I mix resolution and sensor size, since they both come into play to produce the final image quality.

---------- Post added 07-08-15 at 12:56 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
On small sensor camera like Pentax Q it doesn't seems like Pentax get any benefit of the smaller sensor in SR effectiveness compared to APS-C.
Good point. The SR of the Pentax Q, claim to be able to stabilize 4 stops, so, as you mean, it's not better than the claimed SR perf of the APS-C line. The reason for this is the smaller sensor of the Q has less inertia , but at the same time, Q pixels are 1.54 microns pitched. So, you've just figured out that if you change the size of pixels and sensor in roughly the same amount, the SR performance spec stay the same.

Now, if you apply this to the move from APSC to FF, to keep the same SR performance on FF, you'd have to increase the size of pixel on the full frame sensor, so that the SR can compensate for the same amount of blur (pixel relative). For example, the A7 24Mpixel FF sensor SR is also 4.5 stops, like the K-3 24Mp APSc SR perf. spec. of 4.5 stops.

I let you think about what SR perf. would be for a Pentax FF with a 24Mpixels sensor, or 36Mpixel sensor, 42Mpixels, and 50Mpixels.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-07-2015 at 03:59 AM.
08-07-2015, 04:20 AM   #210
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Movement can decomposed as a combination of transations and rotations.

A translation of 1mm need to be compensated by an oposite translation of 1mm. That does change if the sensor is APSC, m4/3, FF, MF or 1/2.3" But yes the bigger the sensor the less this same move of 1mm mean in term of pixel shift, so the less visible it will be for a bigger sensor.

I agree that for rotation, 1 of rotation is still 1 but for the effective absolute speed at the border of the sensor is not the same. Because the distance are scale by a factor of 1.5 between APSC and FF, an FF sensor would need to move 1.5 time faster to compensate rotation... Or 0.6EV.

Incidently latest K-3-II improved SR efficiancy so that would compensate... You could expect same efficicancy on FF as we were stuck with first K3 or K5 familly. Not that bad.
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