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02-20-2016, 10:46 AM   #601
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You'd think at some point back lit sensors will make it to APS-c. After all there has been BSI WGs for years. 16 MP on those little tiny sensors, but, the high ISO still pretty much sucks on them as far as I know.
Its not a miracle...but it does make a difference. And BSI is on the aps-c nx1 and FF a7rii.

02-20-2016, 11:05 AM   #602
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A good BSI has got to be "stacked", which is not the case of the Samsung
02-20-2016, 11:26 AM   #603
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I can't make a bet, but I'm sure the next APS-C Pentax will be video oriented. Not because the existing users want it very much, but because this is the trend. And Pentax must keep up with the market, and needs new, young users.
02-20-2016, 11:44 AM   #604
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
I can't make a bet, but I'm sure the next APS-C Pentax will be video oriented. Not because the existing users want it very much, but because this is the trend. And Pentax must keep up with the market, and needs new, young users.


Erm, no. Everyone else saw it, and invested in video. Including Leica. Pentax didn't. Though they do have that headphone jack, that confuses me to no end. It's a pretty serious video feature, so much so that most cameras don't have it, even those revered for being good at video. The GH4 has it, but one step down, the G7 (which I tried today and was really impressed with... shame no SR though, otherwise...) it's gone.

Anyway, I don't think Pentax cares much about trends. Or about the market. They do their own thing, appealing to a limited audience.

I'm curious how the K-3 successor will be. It can't cost more than the K-1, can it? But then it might be limited in capabilities. The K-1 tries hard to be affordable, while still being a real Pentax (i.e. sealed, tough, well designed). Using the latest and greatest sensor, processor etc. may push a K-3 successor over the K-1...? Or at least close in terms of pricing...

It might be possible that there'll be a camera above the K-1, which does feature the latest and greatest processor and sensor, and thus have 4K and what not. But it doesn't look like they make full use of what is in the K-1 anyway...


Last edited by kadajawi; 02-20-2016 at 11:47 AM. Reason: .
02-20-2016, 11:44 AM   #605
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
A good BSI has got to be "stacked", which is not the case of the Samsung
In what way is the NX1 not "good" (regarding image quality, not useability)?
02-20-2016, 11:48 AM   #606
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
I can't make a bet, but I'm sure the next APS-C Pentax will be video oriented. Not because the existing users want it very much, but because this is the trend. And Pentax must keep up with the market, and needs new, young users.
People have been saying that on here for years..

From what I see coming out of the Pentax brand, I don't think we'll see a video-oriented Pentax DSLR until EVFs are the norm and not the hot trend. The technology is interesting, but still not completely fleshed out.

Besides look how long it took a company to release a Pentax FF. And Ricoh seems to be fairly conservative with changes to their business models.. They're a stills brand until everyone else is pulling frames out of their video feed... and then they still might go 'down' swinging. Stills for life!
02-20-2016, 11:48 AM   #607
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote


Erm, no. Everyone else saw it, and invested in video. Including Leica. Pentax didn't. Though they do have that headphone jack, that confuses me to no end. It's a pretty serious video feature, so much so that most cameras don't have it, even those revered for being good at video. The GH4 has it, but one step down, the G7 (which I tried today and was really impressed with... shame no SR though, otherwise...) it's gone.
Market segmentation.
02-20-2016, 11:50 AM   #608
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QuoteOriginally posted by MadMathMind Quote
Canon and Nikon both just released $2k APS-C cameras. Or will release soon. I don't think APS-C is dead. But where it gets interesting is for these users: own Canon or Nikon entry level model with the kit lens and maybe one other inexpensive lens. Looking to jump to something more advanced. Do they consider the Pentax $1800 FF camera, which is $200 cheaper than those high-end APS-C models? The lens investment is basically zero for them. Moving to another system is not a terribly major decision.

That's really a big chunk of the APS-C market: people who just buy these things and spend little else on them. It makes Canon's market share awesome but the $100-200 profit they see on the Rebel T3i buyer is about all they get from him.
Is it really the market for theses guys? To me theses high end APSC are targeted are pro/action shooters that want the best AF and FPS possible for action/sport and potentially wildlife.

This kind of the opposite of the not so expensive, general purpose camera.

02-20-2016, 12:18 PM   #609
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote


Erm, no. Everyone else saw it, and invested in video. Including Leica. Pentax didn't. Though they do have that headphone jack, that confuses me to no end. It's a pretty serious video feature, so much so that most cameras don't have it, even those revered for being good at video. The GH4 has it, but one step down, the G7 (which I tried today and was really impressed with... shame no SR though, otherwise...) it's gone.
Well stereo jack cost is like 1$ for them so that look bearable. Even 4K, some smartphone have it too.

But what really matter is video with full sensor read and even a GH4 doesn't do it. A7R-II does it but only on a frame sightly bigger than APSC (Super 35) meaning this is not a full sensor read from FF size. Even A7s doesn't do 4K record with full readout if you don't provided an external recorder. An FF still camera is not a tool made for video, whatever the marketing claims. Oh they sell it all they can, but that not really that.

Also to max out 4K quality, that is 8MP as in real pixels, you need to have full read of each color, meaning you need 32MP... And no camera provide 32MP full read for now.

I think Pentax doesn't have 4K on their K-1 for a simple reason: either the sensor or the processor were not made for it at the time they made the design. Sure that if they were willing to put 500$ more into the camera and delay it 6 month more, they could have fixed that, but really that was not worth it

But despite the apparences, no camera out there really push 4K to the max. The problem is 4K just a number in a speak sheet... Likely they start to say 8K when they'll read all the photosites required for perfect 4K than calling it a perfect 4K.

And all of this of course discount that there is not really any broadcast of good diffusion medium for 4K content now. Well outside of cinemas that is.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 02-20-2016 at 12:38 PM.
02-20-2016, 01:25 PM   #610
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
In what way is the NX1 not "good" (regarding image quality, not useability)?
I just meant the better performance as far as noise is concerned should be possible with Sony's tech. thanks to sensor integrated digital / analogic processor.
So i might have exagerated a bit using the "good" overall IQ term.
02-20-2016, 02:43 PM   #611
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote


Anyway, I don't think Pentax cares much about trends. Or about the market. They do their own thing, appealing to a limited audience.
Do you wanna say that Ricoh is making camera just for fun? If I remember well, 3 years ago, they said that their plan is to became a major player in the market in 5 years. This doesn't sounds like appealing to a limited audience.

2-3 years ago, same kind of arguments was used by some people against a Pentax FF camera. And now there is one, even that the lenses support for it is not on pair with the competition.

And about that headphone jack. Maybe a phone jack is just 1 dollar, but the hole K-3 body has to be design to adapt that jack, and the electronic must support it. All of this means effort, and expenses many orders of magnitude over ''1 dollar''. And they have a meaning. Probably, Ricoh is building slowly a platform, maybe they have in mind a future firmware upgrade. I don't know what's their plan, but I'm sure that a (some) Pentax video oriented camera is coming.
02-20-2016, 03:10 PM   #612
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QuoteOriginally posted by MadMathMind Quote
Canon and Nikon both just released $2k APS-C cameras. Or will release soon. I don't think APS-C is dead. But where it gets interesting is for these users: own Canon or Nikon entry level model with the kit lens and maybe one other inexpensive lens. Looking to jump to something more advanced. Do they consider the Pentax $1800 FF camera, which is $200 cheaper than those high-end APS-C models? The lens investment is basically zero for them. Moving to another system is not a terribly major decision.

That's really a big chunk of the APS-C market: people who just buy these things and spend little else on them. It makes Canon's market share awesome but the $100-200 profit they see on the Rebel T3i buyer is about all they get from him.
D500 and 80D are more speedy and video orientated cameras, while K-1 is more into high resolution, landscape, architecture, product and astrophotography. I don't think many people that consider the 80D and D500 will consider the K-1, and vise verca. Just like those considering 1DX and D5 wont consider 645Z and vise verca.

QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Gosh, any 36 or 42 Mpix APS-C in sight ?!
Samsung have a 28 Mp BSI sensor, but I think the next step for Sony, Nikon and Pentax will be 32 Mp APS-C, with BSI. These will be for Mp-suckers.

I also hope we will get relatively low Mp APS-C cameras with stacked sensors for higher dynamic range and speedy readout, for sports photographers and videographers.

QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
BSI APS-C ?!
I'll buy it
Yes, but BSI is only notable efficient at collecting more light on small pixels, so I guess we will see that in many 30+ Mp APS-C cameras from now on.

The Mp race is not over by any means. In a decade we might have 100 Mp APS-C cameras even if the lenses cant keep up the pace.
02-20-2016, 05:09 PM - 1 Like   #613
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
The Mp race is not over by any means. In a decade we might have 100 Mp APS-C cameras even if the lenses cant keep up the pace.
Let us remember that camera manufacturer make their money on lenses and you'll understand that they want you to have camera that need expensive lenses or updated versions. Let us remember too that many people here on the internet, reviewers and enthousiasts think a lot about resolution, 100% crop and alike and that most modern lenses as a consequences are designed as big, heavy thing that have quite high resolution figures.

i don't think that primes like the FA ltd or the macro primes we have would have any issue to get some benefit out of 30MP or even 50MP APSC. But anyway we see smartphone with 20MP that don't look so sharp at 100% and many camera sold with kit lens that never fully use the camera and the newbie don't care.

More MP, more AF points, more of everything always better. After all the biggest complain we have there about K-1 is that the video should have been 4K even if the only diffusion device that has 4K content available are cinemas with screen of 20 meters large and most people video would see them on their computer on a 15" laptop screen. The cheapest pro 4K video camera, device made only for that are at least 3000$ with like a super 35mm sensor, and that really a bargain but a 1800$ still camera should have the perfect 4K video features !
02-20-2016, 06:03 PM - 1 Like   #614
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
People have been saying that on here for years..

From what I see coming out of the Pentax brand, I don't think we'll see a video-oriented Pentax DSLR until EVFs are the norm and not the hot trend. The technology is interesting, but still not completely fleshed out.
I really believe you are correct about Pentax waiting on EVF's, but I think their motivation is more waiting for the EVF technology to fully mature and the quality to equal OVFs and less waiting for EVF market penetration. If video in a Pentax requires it should be mirrorlless we're going to wait a while, I think.

The first time out with an MILC a company must design a completely new manufacturing process, which is part of the camera engineering. Clean slate stuff. There's no embedded engineering to reuse, not even K-mount engineering or lens engineering - and all the new costs need to be amortized. Working on the EVF is probably beyond Ricoh Imaging right now. They're probably supplier-limited. Ideally the savings from a more automated manufacturing process and less complex camera pay back the engineering costs over time, but that assumes a Pentax product is enough different from (Sony) to warrant entering the product silo.

If that is all correct we can think of the Q as not just a product, but also a learning platform. I wonder how much manufacturing process engineering from Q (and maybe GR) is scalable to a larger sensor camera with a new mount.
02-21-2016, 02:21 AM   #615
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I really believe you are correct about Pentax waiting on EVF's, but I think their motivation is more waiting for the EVF technology to fully mature and the quality to equal OVFs and less waiting for EVF market penetration. If video in a Pentax requires it should be mirrorlless we're going to wait a while, I think.

The first time out with an MILC a company must design a completely new manufacturing process, which is part of the camera engineering. Clean slate stuff. There's no embedded engineering to reuse, not even K-mount engineering or lens engineering - and all the new costs need to be amortized. Working on the EVF is probably beyond Ricoh Imaging right now. They're probably supplier-limited. Ideally the savings from a more automated manufacturing process and less complex camera pay back the engineering costs over time, but that assumes a Pentax product is enough different from (Sony) to warrant entering the product silo.

If that is all correct we can think of the Q as not just a product, but also a learning platform. I wonder how much manufacturing process engineering from Q (and maybe GR) is scalable to a larger sensor camera with a new mount.
Well a K-02 is possible no? They would need a sensor with PDAF bundled and an EVF but this could be done no?
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