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02-24-2016, 11:26 PM   #706
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I consider the K-3 a one generation upgrade for action subjects such as sports and wildlife. Much better autofocus, more pixels for cropping, faster burst rate. It's a sidegrade, not upgrade, for landscapes and architecture: the extra pixels help if you print large but the dynamic range wasn't quite as good as the K-5.

02-25-2016, 12:41 AM   #707
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
I just disagree that FF necessarily makes lenses bigger, heavier and more expensive. Its not that simple. The reason FF lenses are lager and more expensive are that customers have higher (other) demands, so the lenses are often not built just to match APS-C lenses. They are built with better specs and that is the true reason the FF lenses are bigger, heavier and more expensive.
No, the main reason is that for the same reach you need a longer focal length and to cover a larger area, hence a bigger lens. There no way arround the fact for a given field of view, you have 300mm on an FF, 200mm on APSC, 150mm on m4/3 or 65mm on a Q. No way the FF 300mm lens with match the Q 65mm lens.

QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
@Nicolas: A lens made for FF image circle (IE the FA77/1,8) would be larger, heavier and more expensive then a hypothetical DA77/1,8 with a true APS-C image circle. When comparing size, weight and cost, the image circle size does matter. Thats why I want you to compare with APS-C image circle lenses, not just FF lenses put on a APS-C camera.
Man today I own an FA77 and a K3, among other things. That's reality. I don't care you to prevent me use FF lenses on my APSC body. I can do it and most people do it.

So if tomorrow I decide to use a K1 instead of K3, I'll have to use a much bigger lense, likely the F135 in my case. Period.
02-25-2016, 12:45 AM   #708
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
I just know that my very light kit is the camera with the DA35 on it and the 15 and 70 snug in a belt case, if I switched to FF the 35 could easily be switched with my F50 1,7 but could I find a 21 to 24mm FF and a 105 FF in Pentax mount that are the same size as the two DA lenses. In theory I know it is possible, I've owned a lens for 4X5 that is that small but does anyone make FF lenses that would replace my DA ones?

Full frame offers many advantages over the cropped sensor however compactness may not be one of them. And I could further lighten my load with the K-S2.

As long as there is a market for cropped sensor cameras they will be around. But then I never thought that vinyl would outlast cassette tapes or cds.
Exactly, what matter is the practice as people that have the choice to buy something that does exist and serve their purpose. If I switch to FF, I'll have to spend lot of money and deal with a heavier/bigger gear.

In my case, I decided it was not worth it. Some own a 645Z. Everybody is different.

But denying that there a market for high end APSC is silly.
02-25-2016, 12:50 AM   #709
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
But denying that there a market for high end APSC is silly.
You are right - at this moment. But I can guarantee you that the K-mount will be FF only in a few years, leaving us with the Q, K and 645 series. It makes perfect business sense...

02-25-2016, 01:07 AM   #710
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Equivalent aperture is the same aperture. Everything else is just a misunderstanding of the concept of aperture.
Lenses have in reality never same DOF characteristics or same max magnification, while maintaining the same angle of view, cross formats anyway, so the point is moot. Besides, no one says lenses needs to be DOF equivalent anyway.
The law of reciprocity is totally clear and does not involve DOF at all, in case some are still in doubt. Hence it prohibit the concept of comparing 100ISO to 200ISO cross formats as a rule, as reciprocity gives you freedom to do what you like with the parametres to get the same result (exposure). That is what reciprocity means and has been the fundament for photography since it was invented.
It depend what you are interrested into. You seem to be interrested in the density of light that hit the sensitive surface. So for you apperture doesn't need to change. That's fine.

For me I don't care one bit of the density of light. with iso from 100 to 100K available and max shutter speed of 1/8000, the only case were I can't get away with a given density of light is long exposures of waterfalls.

But the actuall picture may look VERY different dependanding of the actual deph of field and iso used. iso 25600 on my K3 look bad. My FA77 set to f/2 for some indoor architecture shot has not enouth deph of field for my licking. But my smartphone in the same environnement has everything in focus but is too noisy.

I care of the asthetics of the picture first and in difficult condition of its quality. For both cases, applying the equivalence formula fully, including apperture too give much more accurate results.

If you don't want to use it, well that your problem, not mine. You may not miss it one bit. That's ok. But this doesn't prevent me to get usefull information from it.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 02-25-2016 at 01:18 AM.
02-25-2016, 01:24 AM   #711
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
You are right - at this moment. But I can guarantee you that the K-mount will be FF only in a few years, leaving us with the Q, K and 645 series. It makes perfect business sense...
Gap huge between Q and K and small between K and 645.

It is ok for me, if we get only FF, as long as we get a large set of small lenses for it and bodies are small. Basically a K-01 (not K1) could have an FF sensor. And if you add a view finder, you don't care if your lense cover 1", m4/3, APSC or FF image circle.

So as long as the sensor is cheap and has enough pixels, you can produce a wide range of small, medium and larges lenses for it as to cover all the market needs.

We are not there yet.
02-25-2016, 05:46 AM   #712
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
You are right - at this moment. But I can guarantee you that the K-mount will be FF only in a few years, leaving us with the Q, K and 645 series. It makes perfect business sense...
That may depend on whether a market for high-end APS-C still exists (wildlife etc.) and is being supplied by Canikon (7D2, D500). Ricoh may want to be part of this market where the affluent amateurs play, especially as they have the recent DA560 and the new DFA150-450.
02-25-2016, 08:27 AM   #713
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QuoteOriginally posted by Scintilla Quote
Adorama's currently listing all the K-50s, K-S1s, and K-S2s as Closeout, and I'd like to think we can trust Adorama more than (say) Amazon Marketplace when it comes to these things; might the lower-end APS-C camera actually hit first? The K-S2 is half a year older than the K-3II after all...
I am very surprised that the K-S2 is on closeout. Maybe the rumors that it wasn't selling well are true.

Nikon and Sony APS-C cameras all have 24MP sensors so it might have been a mistake to release the K-S1 and K-S2 with 20MP sensors (that are inferior to the 24MP when they technically should have been superior in terms of noise and DR). Unfortunately people look at the megapickles... I can't think of any other reason why the camera would be a flop compared to, say, the K-50 and K-30 before it.

02-25-2016, 08:44 AM   #714
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
I can't think of any other reason why the camera would be a flop compared to, say, the K-50 and K-30 before it.

I'm not a camera market expert, but I sometimes wonder if the Pentax K30, K50, KS1, and KS2 market is basically saturated for the time being. That, and perhaps the prices of the top tier camera being so reachable for so many that they just go for the K-3. And maybe people are just waiting for the K-1, but seems like the K50 buyer is likely not to be the K-1 buyer.
02-25-2016, 09:40 AM   #715
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Gap huge between Q and K and small between K and 645.
Wrong.
K was crop only until K-1 and 645 is crop only for now.
Of course from FF K to cropped 645, difference is small but I expect Ricoh to go ahead FF 645 as soon as a proper sensor arrives.
02-25-2016, 10:50 AM   #716
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
You are right - at this moment. But I can guarantee you that the K-mount will be FF only in a few years, leaving us with the Q, K and 645 series. It makes perfect business sense...
I don't know if further development of the Q system makes sense, at least given the overall parameters of the current Q system.
02-25-2016, 11:10 AM   #717
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Duplicate threads merged.
02-25-2016, 11:45 AM   #718
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Gap huge between Q and K and small between K and 645.
Yes, I fully agree. IMHO, I'd say that the constrains on IQ and sensor sizes aren't constants (in 35mm FL terms):
- from 15mm to 30mm it is easier to makes lenses with good edge sharpness on FF.
- from 30mm to 300mm, APSC shines IQ is very good, so you can even print large and at normal viewing distance, it's hard to see a difference between APSC and FF
- beyond 300mm, it's complicated.... for static subjects, APSC gives you more reach but some stress on lens resolution (for example, long zoom are ok, but not super sharp on a 24Mp APSC sensor) and as you need more speed you get constrained by high iso limitation of APSC. For reach long primes really help. Otherwise FF on slower longer zooms such as Sigma 150-600 or Tamy 150-600. For me the DFA150-450 is a bit of a dilemma as I believe you can get good enough results with a DA300 on a K-3 vs DFA150-450 f5.6 @450 on a K-1, but the FF combo is more expensive and heavier , although AF may be better.

However, as people are getting older, expectations never decrease, and prices going down, FF is slowly getting more pervasive. it will take a couple more years to see more FF systems and prices almost down to the APSC levels. It's a slow trend but we are getting there. APSC will take a hit, and unfortunately, APSC limited lenses will also take a big hit.
02-25-2016, 12:00 PM   #719
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
You are right - at this moment. But I can guarantee you that the K-mount will be FF only in a few years, leaving us with the Q, K and 645 series. It makes perfect business sense...
I hadn't seen this...

I question the business sense of that, when there's no proof that the FF cameras are only a few years away from obliterating the APS-C market.

Unless Pentax plans on releasing a new mirrorless mount, perhaps based around the Ricoh GR just like the Fuji system is based on the X100.
02-25-2016, 12:34 PM   #720
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Wrong.
K was crop only until K-1 and 645 is crop only for now.
Of course from FF K to cropped 645, difference is small but I expect Ricoh to go ahead FF 645 as soon as a proper sensor arrives.
Getting the proper sensor is only a matter of asking Sony. Phaseone got its sensor and is significantly bigger than current cropped 645 sensor. Question is how much are you willing to pay for that ? For now there so few camera sold that you can't benefit from economy of scale.

Anyway FF 645 vs 35mm FF would have the same difference than FF vs m4/3 while cropped 645 vs 35mm FF is more like m4/3 vs APSC and significantly less than between APSC vs 35mm FF.
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