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02-26-2016, 09:02 AM   #736
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
But as always, there the inventory of old gear so we would likely still have some K3-II and K-S2 still available and confusing people.
The situation right now is more confusing than you imply. Out of curiosity, I went through eBay's USA listings just now. There are 12 K-01 listings for new cameras totaling 66 cameras
(some listings are by 6th Ave Express for 10 cameras). There are 140 K-30 listings for new cameras, 160 K-50 listings for new cameras, 98 K-S1 listings for new cameras,
and 88 K-S2 listings for new cameras (after systematically going through the mound of K-01 listings, I didn't feel like repeating the process for the mountain of other listings,
but spot checking showed that at least some of these other listings were for multiple cameras also). Then there are the used listings ...
(I bought my K-30 used-like-new [shutter count something like 3] from KEH last June).

I have no idea what current production is, but these listings suggest that there is a significant backlog of lower priced K APS-C bodies in inventory,
and that will be a drag on sales of any new model.

02-26-2016, 09:09 AM   #737
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I have no idea what current production is, but these listings suggest that there is a significant backlog of lower priced K APS-C bodies in inventory, and that will be a drag on sales of any new model.
This is Nikon's problem to. Look at Sony with their RX100 series.
02-26-2016, 09:12 AM   #738
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Pentax need a better k-mount recruitment camera to undercut Canons 100D and Nikon D3300 in price, size and weight. Even if it means cheaping down on key components. A fast suggestion based on the K-500:
.........
Replace the prism with a mirror
I believe putting a mirror in the K-500 was a big mistake. PentaPrism is a big part of Pentax's heritage {as well as of their name}; an MILC would make sense, but any DSLR should have a PentaPrism in that housing on the top {in fact, I believe future cameras should echo the K-1 housing as a visual trademark tying the family together}.
02-26-2016, 09:16 AM   #739
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reh321: The current K-500 has a pentaprism, not a mirror. Thats why I suggest to exchange it for a mirror, just like the K-r had. Its not a huge difference in quality but it saves some weight.

QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
A recruitment camera today will need total integration with a smartphone, to be controlled in totality with an app, and to be connected simple and easy to net. That's the essential for the young generation.
I agree that it must work very well with phones and social media, but It should not require a phone. It should be an independent device. Phone and app usage optional.

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Nope. They said no dslr without prism and 100% VF. I expect them to keep that.
The current competition from mirrorless should not be underestimated. They should reconsider that stubborn statement and respect that mirrorless are a threat in the entry level market. That weight loss is important.

They also need that price and feature segmentation. If all cameras have big nice prism VF, there would be no prism VF argument for a later upgrade and there would be less people choosing Pentax as their first system camera because of weight.


Last edited by Simen1; 02-26-2016 at 10:40 AM.
02-26-2016, 11:40 AM   #740
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
The current K-500 has a pentaprism, not a mirror. Thats why I suggest to exchange it for a mirror, just like the K-r had. Its not a huge difference in quality but it saves some weight
I hardly think you can say "current" - very few K-500's are available now; even eBay has only one of them, from Russia, and it is used {even the "failed" K-01 is much more readily available}. I believe Pentax made a mistake in not making the K-S1 WR, that Pentax needs to rebuild their reputation, as a brand of quality at all price points.

QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
The current competition from mirror-less should not be underestimated. They should reconsider that stubborn statement and respect that mirror-less are a threat in the entry level market. That weight loss is important. They also need that price and feature segmentation. If all cameras have big nice prism VF, there would be no prism VF argument for a later upgrade and there would be less people choosing Pentax as their first system camera because of weight.
I agree with you here. By definition an MILC is not a DSLR, so that "stubborn statement" simply agrees with what I said above, but shouldn't prevent them from developing a K-02.

Last edited by reh321; 02-26-2016 at 11:44 AM. Reason: added thought
02-26-2016, 11:45 AM   #741
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
reh321: The current K-500 has a pentaprism, not a mirror. Thats why I suggest to exchange it for a mirror, just like the K-r had. Its not a huge difference in quality but it saves some weight.
Yes it is huge. Looking through my wife's K100D is depressing you have no idea. It is that bad.

As for their suposedly stubborn statement it has nothing to do with mirrorless. It was strictly in the context of a dslr. And it helps building a brand image so nothing wrong with that IMO.
02-26-2016, 12:18 PM   #742
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Nope. They said no dslr without prism and 100% VF.
I expect them to keep that.
+1000
If you are a small payer, you need to differenciate and innovate.
Making alike the big boys can only drag you down...
02-26-2016, 12:35 PM - 1 Like   #743
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Pentax could keep WR and prism in all classes, but then they also must give up the idea of a cheap and lightweight recruitment camera and make us Pentaxians an endangered species.

But lets just take that thought experiment a bit further. Lets say the current low and mid priced APS-C line are replaced with four very similar cameras, with VF, weight and price as the only difference. Lets call them K-H for hypothetical. Assume the K-3 line lives its own life of upgrades.

K-H1 with pentamirror VF, 96%, 0,85x, no WR, 528 gram, 250$ kit price
K-H2 with electronic VF, 100%, 1,2x, no WR, 528 gram, 350$ kit price
K-H3 with electronic VF, 100%, 1,2x, WR, 578 gram, 450$ WR kit price
K-H4 with pentaprism VF, 100%, 0,97x, WR, 628 gram, 550$ WR kit price

What would the first time buyers buy? What would be a natural choice for a first time upgrader? What model could you advice someone in your family to buy? What model would sell worst?

Personally I think the K-H1 would sell very well amongst first timers and compete well against some mirrorless buyers. I also think the K-H2 would sell almost as good, but the K-H3 significantly less. I think the K-H4 would sell worst because its to close to the K-3 line. Very few first timers would buy it because of price and weight. Very few upgraders would buy it because they would rather go strait to the K-3 line.


Last edited by Simen1; 02-26-2016 at 02:33 PM.
02-26-2016, 01:03 PM   #744
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Pentax could keep WR and prism in all classes, but then they also must give up the idea of a cheap and lightweight recruitment camera and make us Pentaxians an endangered species.

But lets just take that thought experiment a bit further. Lets say the current low and mid priced APS-C line are replaced with four very similar cameras, with VF, weight and price as the only difference. Lets call them K-H for hypothetical. Assume the K-3 line lives its own life of upgrades.

K-H1 with pentamirror VF, 96%, 0,85x, no WR, 400 gram, 250$ kit price
K-H2 with electronic VF, 100%, 1,2x, no WR, 400 gram, 350$ kit price
K-H3 with electronic VF, 100%, 1,2x, WR, 500 gram, 450$ kit price
K-H4 with pentaprism VF, 100%, 0,97x, WR, 700 gram, 550$ kit price

What would the first time buyers buy? What would be a natural choice for a first time upgrader? What model could you advice someone in your family to buy? What model would sell worst?

Personally I think the K-H1 would sell very well amongst first timers and compete well against some mirrorless buyers. I also think the K-H2 would sell almost as good, but the K-H3 significantly less. I think the K-H4 would sell worst because its to close to the K-3 line. Very few first timers would buy it because of price and weight. Very few upgraders would buy it because they would rather go strait to the K-3 line.
I would rather "sacrifice" WR than pentaprism. Instead of your names, let's just call it K-S1. (I kind of question your weights since the K-500 came in at nearly 650g while the K-S1 is just over 550g.)

Incidentally, my first three vari-focus cameras were as follows:

1969, a Yashica rangefinder camera - I got it for $35 on closeout when the local drugstore stopped carrying 35mm cameras

1973, a Canon rangefinder camera - I got it as a step up

1979, Pentax ME - I had been hearing about Pentax quality all through college and grad school, and finally I could afford one.

Last edited by reh321; 02-26-2016 at 01:11 PM.
02-26-2016, 01:18 PM   #745
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Doing a mirrorless camera with good EVF is NOT trivial. The software needs to be really good. The screen needs to be good. And the processor needs to be FAST. AF performance depends on it. As does the refresh rate and lag inside the viewfinder (Samsung had a massively overpowered processor to be able to do it well). I don't expect the good old Milbeaut to be a good processor for EVFs. Heck, it struggles at focus peaking (not being able to record video while doing focus peaking). Keeping the sensor cool is an issue. As is battery life. Pentax MAY be able to achieve it, but it would take time, and a lot of resources and money. The FF might have been an easy project in comparison.

QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Pentax need a better k-mount recruitment camera to undercut Canons 100D and Nikon D3300 in price, size and weight. Even if it means cheaping down on key components. A fast suggestion based on the K-500:

Improvements to cost, weight and size:
- Replace the prism with a mirror
- Bargain APS-C sensor
- Smaller battery D-LI68
- No steel frame, smaller grip, Q style wheels
- New kit lens: 18-50/4,5-5,6 RE non-WR

Recruitment features:
- Wifi with good phone app and on screen beginners guide
- Four colours worldwide: Black/silver, white/lime, blue/silver and white/strawberry, all with personalization stickers. Targeted for dads, moms, boys and girls
- An upgrade pack with white or silver 50-200mm, SDHC card, second battery, pouch for camera and both lenses, cleaning cloth, a Pentax catalogue and photography guide, a 10%/10$ cash back coupon for a 35/2,4 with all colours

.
The 100D is a serious camera, and I don't think many beginners buy it. It's more aimed at pros, IMHO, who want something light as a backup/everyday camera next to their 1.5 kg Canon.

I think you massively overestimate the importance of weight and size to beginners. I think it is something that is more appealing to professional users. They will buy an OM-D. Or a Fuji. Beginners (who want to get into photography) may be more into the line of thinking big is good (just look at Canon...). And while a light camera may be appreciated, there should be some heft to it. Something very light feels like a cheap toy, and when they are spending money they may want to feel like they bought something proper.

Of course it depends... there are beginners who will buy a Sony a6000, which is light, small and affordable, has a decent EVF etc. But a) Sony is written on it, and b) it is one hell of a video camera... something that does appeal to some. And I don't think Pentax is capable of making a camera anything like it, let alone support another lens lineup. The AF in the a6000 is probably pretty decent, so it is something that a beginner may use and get decent results with. On the other hand if Pentax does decide for doing video, they should be aiming it at professionals. No need for good AF. Makes things easy. Just a solid, high bitrate codec, a flat picture profile and SR during video. 1080p will do, 4K would be better. Good AF for video is HARD. Does Pentax even have enough ultra quiet lenses? And then the processing power. It needs a modern sensor. Sophisticated software algorithms (even Samsung with their resources needed some time to get good AF into their NX1... and they did it by refining their software). Pros are easy to satisfy.
02-26-2016, 02:16 PM   #746
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reh321: Since the the K-H examples are just hypothetical I will adjust the weight right away, to make it more realistic. Just tell me if the examples need more iterations.

Edit: I assumed the K-H4 starts with the weight of K-S2, 678g and subtracted 50g for not having a fully articulated screen. Then I assumed WR weighs 50 gram and the difference between prism and mirror to be 50 gram. Removing those 100g I got to 528 gram for the K-H1. Assuming EVF weighs the same as a pentamirror finder I got to 528g for the K-H2 and 578g for the WR K-H3. Does this sound reasonable? And the prices? What else can Pentax to do attract the price sensitive and/or weight/size sensitive market?

Last edited by Simen1; 02-26-2016 at 02:36 PM.
02-26-2016, 06:25 PM   #747
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Pentax could keep WR and prism in all classes, but then they also must give up the idea of a cheap and lightweight recruitment camera and make us Pentaxians an endangered species.

But lets just take that thought experiment a bit further. Lets say the current low and mid priced APS-C line are replaced with four very similar cameras, with VF, weight and price as the only difference. Lets call them K-H for hypothetical. Assume the K-3 line lives its own life of upgrades.

K-H1 with pentamirror VF, 96%, 0,85x, no WR, 528 gram, 250$ kit price
K-H2 with electronic VF, 100%, 1,2x, no WR, 528 gram, 350$ kit price
K-H3 with electronic VF, 100%, 1,2x, WR, 578 gram, 450$ WR kit price
K-H4 with pentaprism VF, 100%, 0,97x, WR, 628 gram, 550$ WR kit price

What would the first time buyers buy? What would be a natural choice for a first time upgrader? What model could you advice someone in your family to buy? What model would sell worst?

Personally I think the K-H1 would sell very well amongst first timers and compete well against some mirrorless buyers. I also think the K-H2 would sell almost as good, but the K-H3 significantly less. I think the K-H4 would sell worst because its to close to the K-3 line. Very few first timers would buy it because of price and weight. Very few upgraders would buy it because they would rather go strait to the K-3 line.
Are theses camera supposed to be different outside the viewfinder? Because between K50 matches K-H4 and cost 300$... WR is very cheap to have. So they would hypothetically have:
K-H1 with pentaxprism WR, 628g @ 300$, 400$ with kit.
K-H3 with EVF @800$ to recoup the investment and innovation on the technology.

and still K-S2 for 470$ and K3 for 600$. The K-H3 will not sell well.
02-27-2016, 09:59 AM   #748
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I have listed some obvious advances that could be made to the Q, largely within what Pentax is doing with K-mount cameras, but now many of us seem to be holding a "wake" - the gathering dating back to times when medical science sometimes misdiagnosed a comatose patient as being dead, so friends and family would visit while waiting to see if he would awaken.
Yeah, I know some of us have had that conversation(s) in the Q forum, but my Qoncern is for the current of Q ecosystem of Q body + lenses, specifically that it may prove problematic for Pentax to source 1/1.7" sensors for a next-gen Q body. Over the last year to two, P&S camera have had either 1/2.3" or 1" sensors, it seems.

Anyway, it's hopeful that Pentax does, in fact, intend to release the maQro lens, according to the CP+ interview Adam posted.

QuoteQuote:
The Q line is still a current line, but we focused our limited resources on the K-1. We plan to release the roadmapped Q-mount macro lens in the near future.
02-27-2016, 10:36 AM   #749
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The problem for Ricoh / Pentax in North America (selling lower-priced, higher-volume dSLR's) seems to be distribution in the BigBox Channel. They can't seem to get anything into Best Buy, K-Mart, Sears, Wal-Mart or even a real, all-stores distribution in Target.

Pentax seems destined to be a 'more-features-for-the-dollar' word-of-mouth brand that those in the know seek out on the internet. That's fine, of course, but at the smaller volume there has to be a higher per-unit margin or there just isn't enough profit to keep a product going in the West. Ergo, no marketing and thin support.
Yes! At a generic photography discussion forum where I'm a regular, there have been two threads this past day concerning Pentax. One was a guy from Schenectady who is interested in getting a K-3ii, but wants to actually handle it, and would have to devote a day going to-from Manhattan. The thread has a number of comments complementary to Pentax, but recognition that in the US, your choices are limited to Canikon if you want to handle the camera first and you don't live in a big city {and often at that same forum, if someone asks "which camera should I buy", the advice is "go to a store and see which one is most comfortable in your hands"}. This is indeed a serious marketing issue for Pentax if they want to improve their standing in this market.

Incidentally, the other thread was started by someone who has been a Pentax user for 48 years, but is largely switching to Nikon because he takes BIF pictures, and Pentax AF has let him down too often.
02-27-2016, 11:48 AM   #750
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All I can say is that while the K-S2 is a great mid-line APS-C DSLR, I sincerely hope there will continue to be premium APS-C cameras under the Pentax name. I want the K-3 line to continue.
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