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07-14-2015, 10:45 AM - 1 Like   #91
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An unofficial buying poll in my photo club....

In the last 2 months:
2 women have bought D810
1 woman bought a D750
1 man who previously owned canon, preordered an A7RmII
2 other men preordered A7RmII
1 man (me) is waiting to see initial reports before buying an A7RmII

3 adapters have now been reviewed that convert Canon lenses electronically to FE mount ($400 to 100)
1 adapter has recently been reported to convert Nikon lenses electronically to FE mount

Sony MILC are now commanding premium pricing, e.g. the A7RmII is priced about $200 above the D810
I would bet that the Sony A7000 BSI APS camera will also go for a premium price. Samsung's NX1 is also going for a premium price for APS.


Last edited by philbaum; 07-14-2015 at 10:49 AM. Reason: 1
07-14-2015, 11:08 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You are now talking about implementations, not about the DSLR and EVF-equipped MILC concepts. But implementations are subject to change... and there's no technical reason preventing a future DSLR to use the same sensor as that Sony, including its on-sensor PDAF system (which, obviously, would work in Live View mode). Some of the current DSLRs have on-sensor PDAF systems. And their dedicated PDAF systems can/will be further improved.

You cannot have a Sony camera in a Pentax body. It would be a Hasselblad-ish contraption anyway, nothing near what you're hoping for.
Yes, you can have the same Sony sensor in a Pentax body but the Sony would have the benefit of a VF in that case (which I much prefer over live view). So why would I carry around a heavy glass VF if the Sony even provides better usability? - Again, please, do not discuss EVF vs. OVF as that is not my point. The point is that on sensor PDAF fits much better into a MILC than into a DSLR.
And, yes, hybrid. Excellent. But expensive and difficult to make. Who would spend the money if EVFs are good enough (not perfect, but good enough)?

Your last sentence I do not understand. Why should Pentax not be able to replace the optical VF with a good EVF? I know, they will most probably not do for still some time. But why should they not be able to do it and what would be Hasselblad-ish about the result?
07-14-2015, 12:43 PM   #93
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A mirrorless camera is interchangeable lens camera that lack a feature; the optical finder.
07-14-2015, 12:44 PM   #94
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You're asking me not to discuss EVF vs. OVF but you're claiming that Sony's EVF "provides better usability". Not playing fair.

Of course on-sensor PDAF would only work in live view (unless some strange hybrid mode would be implemented). But that's not a problem, since live view a secondary mode - to the DSLR's primary optical viewing. Live View on a DSLR doesn't have to track well, to be lightning fast - that's the primary AF system's job. But technically, it can be done at the same level as a MILC.

A Sony camera inside a Pentax shell is very different than Ricoh Imaging making their own large sensor MILC. You were asking for the former; it just won't happen. Sony mount compatible with Sony lenses, Sony electronics (not just the sensor and perhaps few other components) in a Sony-specific layout, Sony software and settings; when you say "that Sony cam" you're pretty specific.
Hasselblad did exactly that, except they did it to make from a low end obsolete camera a "luxury" item, and not to fix all the cost savings and shortcomings incorporated in that wonderfully simple design.
By the way, I don't believe for a second that people asking for a "Sony camera in a Pentax body" would actually buy such a Pentax.

On the matter of Ricoh making their own large sensor MILC system - note that I'm not talking about "replacing the optical VF with a good EVF", it doesn't work that way - right now they're busy with the K-mount FF.

07-14-2015, 01:22 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You're asking me not to discuss EVF vs. OVF but you're claiming that Sony's EVF "provides better usability". Not playing fair.

Live View on a DSLR doesn't have to track well, to be lightning fast - that's the primary AF system's job. But technically, it can be done at the same level as a MILC.
But that is exactly the point. In the videos I linked the PDAF in the a7R II proofs to be at least on par with two of the best autofocusing DSLRs out there. The next generation (probably next year at Sony's speed) will most probably be significantly superior to any DSLR AF. And that not only in live view but with a VF. So, although the DSLR could make use of the PDAF of course it won't be able to compete because of the lack of a comparably fast AF system that works with a VF at the same time.
07-14-2015, 01:33 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by JanG Quote
But that is exactly the point. In the videos I linked the PDAF in the a7R II proofs to be at least on par with two of the best autofocusing DSLRs out there.
But the videos are shot in Live View, aren't they? DSLR's have never relied on Live View for tracking action.
07-14-2015, 01:35 PM   #97
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So you know as a fact that:
a. no present and future DSLR can possibly be better than the D810 and the 5Ds (while Sony will obviously improve)
b. those videos are representative for "autofocus performance"?
Really?
07-14-2015, 02:08 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
But the videos are shot in Live View, aren't they? DSLR's have never relied on Live View for tracking action.
They were shot with iPhones through the VF (that is what DPReview stated in the comments). So yes, they are representative of the best AF performance of the 5DS and 810.

---------- Post added 07-14-2015 at 11:12 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
So you know as a fact that:
a. no present and future DSLR can possibly be better than the D810 and the 5Ds (while Sony will obviously improve)
b. those videos are representative for "autofocus performance"?
Really?
At 1. Have you noticed the speed with that Sony's and Samsung's cams are improving especially with respect to AF? Where is the new revolutionary approach for DSLRs to improve their AF speed in a comparable way? While the Sony and Samsung path is hardly more than a matter of upscaling processing power and PDAF points.
At 2. Yes, they are. See above.

07-14-2015, 02:13 PM   #99
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Again, there is choice and that's what matters...


For those who have doubts on their gear, please try sony A6000 - good choice if you want a good AF, but a typical "catch your finger" MILC ergonomy.


For those who want to make us DSLR-users unhappy : die yourselves.
07-14-2015, 02:17 PM   #100
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1. They had to improve, since they were (are?) so much behind. Now DSLRs have to improve their dedicated PDAF, too - so they won't be surpassed. It all comes down to:
- AF points count and placement, which seems to be the most difficult part (Ricoh has a related patent)
- a RGB metering system with a high enough resolution - already available
- processing power
2. Not so fast. Those are testing only one specific function of the AF system.
07-14-2015, 02:29 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
1. They had to improve, since they were (are?) so much behind. Now DSLRs have to improve their dedicated PDAF, too - so they won't be surpassed. It all comes down to:
- AF points count and placement, which seems to be the most difficult part (Ricoh has a related patent)
- a RGB metering system with a high enough resolution - already available
- processing power
2. Not so fast. Those are testing only one specific function of the AF system.
1. They are not behind any more. In fact the videos demonstrate superiority already (but this might be up to interpretation, so let's say are on par). Remember the Sony a7's AF? What will stop them from further improvements?
2. By circumstance it is one of the most challenging AF-C tasks at least I can think of. Anything even remotely comparable on any Pentax cam that I may have missed?

And just to repeat it: My posts are not about what I like or want (actually, I like OVFs much better than EVFs). It is simply about what I think is going to happen. And I think that statements like "MILCs cannot compete with DSLRs AF-C speed wise" is not true any more. The rest is business - and the simplicity of MILCs rules in this arena.
07-14-2015, 03:29 PM   #102
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You're trying to move the goalposts from "two of the best autofocusing DSLRs out there" to Pentax, which only recently introduced it's first subject tracking-capable DSLR (the K-3), so I'll stop the discussion here. It's late anyway. Good night!
07-14-2015, 04:04 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You're trying to move the goalposts from "two of the best autofocusing DSLRs out there" to Pentax, which only recently introduced it's first subject tracking-capable DSLR (the K-3), so I'll stop the discussion here. It's late anyway. Good night!
I am not trying to move any subject. There are two sentences. There are the very well tracking Canon and Nikon cams with the a7R II at least on par. And then there is Pentax. And I own a K-3 myself, a very good cam (I love mine), but it cannot compete with eye tracking. It does not even have this feature. And I am not overwhelmed by its general tracking capabilities either although I get okayish and at times good results with it. And I mentioned Pentax because they build excellent DSLRs but are beaten hands down by the Sony in AF-C.
07-14-2015, 04:36 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by JanG Quote
are beaten hands down by the Sony in AF-C
That remains to be seen.

Eye-tracking is good for close-up shooting, but I don't think it will help me with shooting a rodeo in low-light at 200mm.
07-14-2015, 04:38 PM - 2 Likes   #105
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We have filled this whole thread with opinion and conjecture.. wait for the camera to be released before determining a 'victor' -- this imaginary 'battle' hasn't even started yet as the opponents are not on the field.
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