DxOMark measures K-3II

KDD · 11-09-2015, 08:05 AM

Not trust DxOMark! DxOMark love Nikon and Canon!

Zygonyx · 11-09-2015, 08:12 AM

Someone said in another place that "they are married with Sony"...
I do not comment on such things, as it is not proven.

thibs · 11-09-2015, 02:03 PM

Still... The fait they need to discuss isn't exactly comforting IMO.

philbaum · 11-09-2015, 03:04 PM

Sony A7R II vs Nikon D810

I didn't bring this topic up, but A7RII beats D810 in all Measurement categories - just ignore the totals of 1 point superiority and look at the Measurement curves SNR, Dynamic Range, Color Range, Color Sensitivity. In Dynamic Range the 810 is better at iso lower than 200, but A7rII beats D810 at iso's about 200. All in all, the difference in the curves is not large in most cases, but those of us who paid way more than sensible for this camera should have some bragging rights :-)

Hopefully, Pentax FF will get the 42mp sensor, its a winner in many ways. However, putting a "hot" performing sensor in a small body with IBIS is a recipe for heat build-up problems, especially in warmer climates. Pentax will undoubtedly use a larger FF body than Sony so that should help a lot. The question is - when will Sony release this sensor to companies like Pentax and Nikon?

**Rondec** · 11-09-2015, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by philbaum

Sony A7R II vs Nikon D810

I didn't bring this topic up, but A7RII beats D810 in all Measurement categories - just ignore the totals of 1 point superiority and look at the Measurement curves SNR, Dynamic Range, Color Range, Color Sensitivity. In Dynamic Range the 810 is better at iso lower than 200, but A7rII beats D810 at iso's about 200. All in all, the difference in the curves is not large in most cases, but those of us who paid way more than sensible for this camera should have some bragging rights :-)

Hopefully, Pentax FF will get the 42mp sensor, its a winner in many ways. However, putting a "hot" performing sensor in a small body with IBIS is a recipe for heat build-up problems, especially in warmer climates. Pentax will undoubtedly use a larger FF body than Sony so that should help a lot. The question is - when will Sony release this sensor to companies like Pentax and Nikon?

These are two really different sensors. The 36 megapixel is better at low iso -- significantly so, while the 42 megapixel is better at high iso, once again significantly so. Noise is about the same between them, it is the dynamic range at various isos that differ.

The other thing is obviously read out speed and video on the 42 Megapixel sensor are better, so if Pentax is interested in top notch video, that is certainly the way to go.

I don't shoot much high iso stuff and would happier with the 36 megapixel sensor, but I'll live with either.

gorme · 11-09-2015, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by KDD

Not trust DxOMark! DxOMark love Nikon and Canon!

They are often criticized because of the bad marks for Canon sensors

For me DxO Mark provides some test results based on scientific testing. These tests are accurate even if all of them are not relevant depending on the use you make of your camera. The overall score is more tricky. There is no scientific measure for an overall score anyway so whatever the score and whatever the way you compute it, an overall score is just an interpretation of a full range of testings. So it is fast to read and also very limited.

About the intern discussions. I honnestly don't know anything about it (I tried to figure this out with Zygonyx but we don't have any clue). Maybe it is because of the score scale which is not on the same level than the other cameras, maybe they want to make another part of the website dedicated to medium format as they have already one branch for mobile and another one for cameras, maybe they are waiting for a good moment in order to have more views... No idea for now. What is sure is that the technical tests are complete for 2 months and an overall score has been computed before I left the company. That beeing said, whatever the release date of the technical review, the technical marks will be accurate and not cheated.

---------- Post added 11-09-15 at 04:18 PM ----------

And by the way, I have a good news for you guys : the 85mm f/1.4 from samyang is now officially supported for K-mount in DxO Optics Pro

**luftfluss** · 11-09-2015, 05:24 PM - **1 Like**

Back in the days of the K-5 roaming the Earth as the tyrannosaurus rex of the APS-C world, Pentaxians loved DXO for giving the K-5's sensor the edge over every other.

Nicolas06 · 11-10-2015, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

These are two really different sensors. The 36 megapixel is better at low iso -- significantly so, while the 42 megapixel is better at high iso, once again significantly so. Noise is about the same between them, it is the dynamic range at various isos that differ.

The other thing is obviously read out speed and video on the 42 Megapixel sensor are better, so if Pentax is interested in top notch video, that is certainly the way to go.

I don't shoot much high iso stuff and would happier with the 36 megapixel sensor, but I'll live with either.

Don't forget we speak of Sony vs Nikon. With the same sensor, Nikon got better results out of the 36MP and that's a common pattern. Nikon and Pentax get more out of the sensor than Sony.

So to me the lower performance of the BSI sensor in some area could be very well the quality of Sony processing than anything else.

Nicolas06 · 11-10-2015, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by luftfluss

Back in the days of the K-5 roaming the Earth as the tyrannosaurus rex of the APS-C world, Pentaxians loved DXO for giving the K-5's sensor the edge over every other.

I remember

Half of it was coming from the iso 80 mode.

Simen1 · 11-10-2015, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

So to me the lower performance of the BSI sensor in some area could be very well the quality of Sony processing than anything else.

I don't know what aperture they use in the sensor tests but i expect BSI to show more advantage over FSI on large apertures. If DxO uses f/4 the advantage will probably be larger on the apartures where light gathering capability matter more.

Kunzite · 11-10-2015, 03:43 AM

Originally posted by luftfluss

Back in the days of the K-5 roaming the Earth as the tyrannosaurus rex of the APS-C world, Pentaxians loved DXO for giving the K-5's sensor the edge over every other.

Except it wasn't DXO who gave the K-5 the edge, but Sony and Pentax engineers (those making the sensor, and those implementing it).
DXO merely acknowledged its greatness

P.S. Someone at the other forum (GordonBGood?) estimated the K-5's DR before DXOMark published their reviews.

Nicolas06 · 11-10-2015, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Except it wasn't DXO who gave the K-5 the edge, but Sony and Pentax engineers (those making the sensor, and those implementing it).
DXO merely acknowledged its greatness

P.S. Someone at the other forum (GordonBGood?) estimated the K-5's DR before DXOMark published their reviews.

This is still DxOmark that allowed us anyway to see the K5 as so efficient and counting that there could be measurement errors and that DxO themselve say that you need 5points more to have a noticeable performance difference between camera, the K5 was actually similar to many other camera but got a lot attention because it got the best results by a small margin.

And that also the Pentax engineers that cheated and smoothed high iso RAWs to get more pleasing high iso pictures in reviews and tests while once you put the raw into a proper denoising tool, what you gain from this is mostly less sharpness compared to an un-modified raw.

thibs · 11-10-2015, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

This is still DxOmark that allowed us anyway to see the K5 as so efficient and counting that there could be measurement errors and that DxO themselve say that you need 5points more to have a noticeable performance difference between camera, the K5 was actually similar to many other camera but got a lot attention because it got the best results by a small margin.

And that also the Pentax engineers that cheated and smoothed high iso RAWs to get more pleasing high iso pictures in reviews and tests while once you put the raw into a proper denoising tool, what you gain from this is mostly less sharpness compared to an un-modified raw.

They all cheat. Nikon uses lower than advertised ISOs and pretend they got lower noise.
No smarter huh?

Nicolas06 · 11-10-2015, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by thibs

They all cheat. Nikon uses lower than advertised ISOs and pretend they got lower noise.
No smarter huh?

Sure !

But DxO is maybe not the worst company here, They don't really care who make the best DSLR. Their benchmarking website is a subproduct of their design choice for their raw converter to have profiles for every lens/camera combination. The added cost to publish it is covered by the advertisement it provide for the company both to sell the Raw converter to photographers.

I agree this might be more complex as DxO is also selling software for camera and other imaging device and I suppose that if one manufactuer was embedding some DxO imaging processing software or specialized hardware designs, they could be tempted to give it a better score.

For now this doesn't look to be the case for DSLR, I don't know honestly what are their clients for such activity.

Simen1 · 11-11-2015, 02:07 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by thibs

They all cheat. Nikon uses lower than advertised ISOs and pretend they got lower noise.
No smarter huh?

If you call that cheating then yes they cheat. But thats registered by DxO so the real ISO is used when plotting ISO vs noise curves. Most (all?) other test sites dont take that into account. They compare manufakturer A ISO X vs manufacturer B ISO X directly even if the real ISO differ from each other or the claimed ISO. DxO got their scientific method right. Thats why they earned my trust.

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11-09-2015, 08:05 AM	#121
KDD Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 403	Not trust DxOMark! DxOMark love Nikon and Canon!

11-09-2015, 08:12 AM	#122
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	Someone said in another place that "they are married with Sony"... I do not comment on such things, as it is not proven.

11-09-2015, 02:03 PM	#123
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Still... The fait they need to discuss isn't exactly comforting IMO.

11-09-2015, 03:04 PM	#124
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	Sony A7R II vs Nikon D810 I didn't bring this topic up, but A7RII beats D810 in all Measurement categories - just ignore the totals of 1 point superiority and look at the Measurement curves SNR, Dynamic Range, Color Range, Color Sensitivity. In Dynamic Range the 810 is better at iso lower than 200, but A7rII beats D810 at iso's about 200. All in all, the difference in the curves is not large in most cases, but those of us who paid way more than sensible for this camera should have some bragging rights :-) Hopefully, Pentax FF will get the 42mp sensor, its a winner in many ways. However, putting a "hot" performing sensor in a small body with IBIS is a recipe for heat build-up problems, especially in warmer climates. Pentax will undoubtedly use a larger FF body than Sony so that should help a lot. The question is - when will Sony release this sensor to companies like Pentax and Nikon?

11-09-2015, 03:57 PM	#125
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,662	Originally posted by philbaum Sony A7R II vs Nikon D810 I didn't bring this topic up, but A7RII beats D810 in all Measurement categories - just ignore the totals of 1 point superiority and look at the Measurement curves SNR, Dynamic Range, Color Range, Color Sensitivity. In Dynamic Range the 810 is better at iso lower than 200, but A7rII beats D810 at iso's about 200. All in all, the difference in the curves is not large in most cases, but those of us who paid way more than sensible for this camera should have some bragging rights :-) Hopefully, Pentax FF will get the 42mp sensor, its a winner in many ways. However, putting a "hot" performing sensor in a small body with IBIS is a recipe for heat build-up problems, especially in warmer climates. Pentax will undoubtedly use a larger FF body than Sony so that should help a lot. The question is - when will Sony release this sensor to companies like Pentax and Nikon? These are two really different sensors. The 36 megapixel is better at low iso -- significantly so, while the 42 megapixel is better at high iso, once again significantly so. Noise is about the same between them, it is the dynamic range at various isos that differ. The other thing is obviously read out speed and video on the 42 Megapixel sensor are better, so if Pentax is interested in top notch video, that is certainly the way to go. I don't shoot much high iso stuff and would happier with the 36 megapixel sensor, but I'll live with either.

11-09-2015, 04:11 PM	#126
gorme Senior Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Galway - Ireland Posts: 213	Originally posted by KDD Not trust DxOMark! DxOMark love Nikon and Canon! They are often criticized because of the bad marks for Canon sensors For me DxO Mark provides some test results based on scientific testing. These tests are accurate even if all of them are not relevant depending on the use you make of your camera. The overall score is more tricky. There is no scientific measure for an overall score anyway so whatever the score and whatever the way you compute it, an overall score is just an interpretation of a full range of testings. So it is fast to read and also very limited. About the intern discussions. I honnestly don't know anything about it (I tried to figure this out with Zygonyx but we don't have any clue). Maybe it is because of the score scale which is not on the same level than the other cameras, maybe they want to make another part of the website dedicated to medium format as they have already one branch for mobile and another one for cameras, maybe they are waiting for a good moment in order to have more views... No idea for now. What is sure is that the technical tests are complete for 2 months and an overall score has been computed before I left the company. That beeing said, whatever the release date of the technical review, the technical marks will be accurate and not cheated. ---------- Post added 11-09-15 at 04:18 PM ---------- And by the way, I have a good news for you guys : the 85mm f/1.4 from samyang is now officially supported for K-mount in DxO Optics Pro

11-09-2015, 05:24 PM - 1 Like	#127
luftfluss Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,626	Back in the days of the K-5 roaming the Earth as the tyrannosaurus rex of the APS-C world, Pentaxians loved DXO for giving the K-5's sensor the edge over every other.

11-10-2015, 01:37 AM	#128
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by Rondec These are two really different sensors. The 36 megapixel is better at low iso -- significantly so, while the 42 megapixel is better at high iso, once again significantly so. Noise is about the same between them, it is the dynamic range at various isos that differ. The other thing is obviously read out speed and video on the 42 Megapixel sensor are better, so if Pentax is interested in top notch video, that is certainly the way to go. I don't shoot much high iso stuff and would happier with the 36 megapixel sensor, but I'll live with either. Don't forget we speak of Sony vs Nikon. With the same sensor, Nikon got better results out of the 36MP and that's a common pattern. Nikon and Pentax get more out of the sensor than Sony. So to me the lower performance of the BSI sensor in some area could be very well the quality of Sony processing than anything else.

11-10-2015, 01:39 AM	#129
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by luftfluss Back in the days of the K-5 roaming the Earth as the tyrannosaurus rex of the APS-C world, Pentaxians loved DXO for giving the K-5's sensor the edge over every other. I remember Half of it was coming from the iso 80 mode.

11-10-2015, 02:15 AM	#130
Simen1 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Tromsø, Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 1,031	Originally posted by Nicolas06 So to me the lower performance of the BSI sensor in some area could be very well the quality of Sony processing than anything else. I don't know what aperture they use in the sensor tests but i expect BSI to show more advantage over FSI on large apertures. If DxO uses f/4 the advantage will probably be larger on the apartures where light gathering capability matter more.

11-10-2015, 03:43 AM	#131
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by luftfluss Back in the days of the K-5 roaming the Earth as the tyrannosaurus rex of the APS-C world, Pentaxians loved DXO for giving the K-5's sensor the edge over every other. Except it wasn't DXO who gave the K-5 the edge, but Sony and Pentax engineers (those making the sensor, and those implementing it). DXO merely acknowledged its greatness P.S. Someone at the other forum (GordonBGood?) estimated the K-5's DR before DXOMark published their reviews.

11-10-2015, 07:11 AM	#132
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by Kunzite Except it wasn't DXO who gave the K-5 the edge, but Sony and Pentax engineers (those making the sensor, and those implementing it). DXO merely acknowledged its greatness P.S. Someone at the other forum (GordonBGood?) estimated the K-5's DR before DXOMark published their reviews. This is still DxOmark that allowed us anyway to see the K5 as so efficient and counting that there could be measurement errors and that DxO themselve say that you need 5points more to have a noticeable performance difference between camera, the K5 was actually similar to many other camera but got a lot attention because it got the best results by a small margin. And that also the Pentax engineers that cheated and smoothed high iso RAWs to get more pleasing high iso pictures in reviews and tests while once you put the raw into a proper denoising tool, what you gain from this is mostly less sharpness compared to an un-modified raw.

11-10-2015, 10:21 AM	#133
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Nicolas06 This is still DxOmark that allowed us anyway to see the K5 as so efficient and counting that there could be measurement errors and that DxO themselve say that you need 5points more to have a noticeable performance difference between camera, the K5 was actually similar to many other camera but got a lot attention because it got the best results by a small margin. And that also the Pentax engineers that cheated and smoothed high iso RAWs to get more pleasing high iso pictures in reviews and tests while once you put the raw into a proper denoising tool, what you gain from this is mostly less sharpness compared to an un-modified raw. They all cheat. Nikon uses lower than advertised ISOs and pretend they got lower noise. No smarter huh?

11-10-2015, 01:17 PM	#134
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by thibs They all cheat. Nikon uses lower than advertised ISOs and pretend they got lower noise. No smarter huh? Sure ! But DxO is maybe not the worst company here, They don't really care who make the best DSLR. Their benchmarking website is a subproduct of their design choice for their raw converter to have profiles for every lens/camera combination. The added cost to publish it is covered by the advertisement it provide for the company both to sell the Raw converter to photographers. I agree this might be more complex as DxO is also selling software for camera and other imaging device and I suppose that if one manufactuer was embedding some DxO imaging processing software or specialized hardware designs, they could be tempted to give it a better score. For now this doesn't look to be the case for DSLR, I don't know honestly what are their clients for such activity.

11-11-2015, 02:07 AM - 1 Like	#135
Simen1 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Tromsø, Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 1,031	Originally posted by thibs They all cheat. Nikon uses lower than advertised ISOs and pretend they got lower noise. No smarter huh? If you call that cheating then yes they cheat. But thats registered by DxO so the real ISO is used when plotting ISO vs noise curves. Most (all?) other test sites dont take that into account. They compare manufakturer A ISO X vs manufacturer B ISO X directly even if the real ISO differ from each other or the claimed ISO. DxO got their scientific method right. Thats why they earned my trust.