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08-18-2015, 09:06 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
As far as fill-flash is concerned, you'd be surprised what the on-board is capable of when you have an f/1.8 (or better, f/1.4) lens mounted rather than a kit f/3.5. Those extra two to two and a half stops fully open translate to a LOT of extra light coming into the camera.
Yup. Can't part with my F 50 1.4. Hung a Rodenstock on it, still solid...

So do you get to take pics of cool stuff? Based on your "handle" you must have some great abstracts...

08-18-2015, 09:42 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
Based on your "handle" you must have some great abstracts...
None of which I am allowed to share with you, unfortunately - medical confidentiality. Even if I de-identified the image, I think I could still get in a LOT of trouble.
08-18-2015, 09:52 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
None of which I am allowed to share with you, unfortunately - medical confidentiality. Even if I de-identified the image, I think I could still get in a LOT of trouble.
No need for that...
08-18-2015, 11:21 AM   #94
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For me this is not new, please read my posts from April 29th and June 11th where I mentioned two bodies.
I've got that info from the same guy that told me about Pentax fullframe camera before Kenspo announced FF on pentaxforums.com

08-18-2015, 11:27 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by banep Quote
For me this is not new, please read my posts from April 29th and June 11th where I mentioned two bodies.
I've got that info from the same guy that told me about Pentax fullframe camera before Kenspo announced FF on pentaxforums.com
Appreciate the recon. Interesting it will be. We all need an "informant" on the lens design group
08-18-2015, 12:15 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote

IMHO, Pentax needs newer, better FF glass (coatings, weight, WR seals, electronics) to make FF actually "worth it" in a cost/return view. Why one would take a world class (I actually AM an optimist) DFA*24-70 F2.8 and put it on a 24MP FF as opposed to a 42mp FF is a reach for me. A 16-50 DA* costs less, will provide comparable results (on a K-3, K-3II), with lower weight.
Clearly. Old Pentax probably wouldn't have but Ricoh, IMHO, got that and are doing what they need to do it properly. In the mean time we have our legacy stuff. But I think we will all want to upgrade soon enough. They need the money so they'll do what needs to be done for us to empty our bank accounts.

DFA150-450 and 70-200 (although that one still hasn't arrive) are some kind of statement IMO. They could have brought a FA50/1.4 in DFA disguise, just with a new motor and WR. I'm sure they won't. Maybe the 1.7/1.8 but not the 1.4: they will bring a new one and we will buy that one or the Sigma.
08-18-2015, 12:59 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Clearly. Old Pentax probably wouldn't have but Ricoh, IMHO, got that and are doing what they need to do it properly. In the mean time we have our legacy stuff. But I think we will all want to upgrade soon enough. They need the money so they'll do what needs to be done for us to empty our bank accounts.

DFA150-450 and 70-200 (although that one still hasn't arrive) are some kind of statement IMO. They could have brought a FA50/1.4 in DFA disguise, just with a new motor and WR. I'm sure they won't. Maybe the 1.7/1.8 but not the 1.4: they will bring a new one and we will buy that one or the Sigma.
Yes. Although I am likely missing something, I was considering the 55 1.4 SDM (haven't seen bad Motor press like the 16-50s yet), but decided to stick with the F (ugliest lens I ever saw, but for some odd reason, Machined lexan appeals to me)... I had the same "hand-hold moment with FA years ago, passed on it too. I keep my old MZ-S in case I need film, so the F is justifiable. (Man was that weak)... I must be sentimental... (to a fault)

I can't part with the 300 FA* 2.8 even though the 560 HD 5.6 is so impressive.... CA manageable, built like a tank. I "bag the 300 DA* F4" when walking around. Found an elated collector, sold off the F 300 F4.5 to pay for it...

Anyone done a SBS with the 55 1.4SDM vs the F or FA 50 1.4? I am really interested in CA/ do coatings help? Should, I think...
08-18-2015, 01:13 PM - 3 Likes   #98
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we were talking about this at our recent afternoon models and photographers meet up locally, and it became a pretty passionate conversation because the bulk of us are currently shooting Nikon.

There are a few different shooters, and what it comes down to is who is Pentax targeting. You look at the crew of us out there and you can kind of see what's going on.


The people just getting started or doing this straight up for fun were carrying kids of high end APSC gear. A few guys who do great images but never want to do it for money are shooting with D7100, 70D, Sony A7.
The people who do a lot of weddings and are 100% working photographers are running either Canon 5D mk3 or Nikon D600/D750. Not wanting 36 or 50mp because of speed of the camera and size of the files
The people doing fashion or landscape are mostly using D810's with the odd 5DMk3, but two of the Canon users specifically looking at upgrading to Hassleblad or the 5DS. (Pentax 645Z they omit due to the flash system and general mantra of the brand. I fought for us)

Then the circle kind of started. The people doing composite work or landscape running D810/D800 high res stuff originally came from Canon and the 5DMk2. Landscape guys changed for the 800/810 because of Resolution. The Canon/Nikon guys who got mad with lack of innovation and same old same old went to the A7 series. The guys who got tired of carrying around extra weight went to m4/3 or Fuji because they don't see a need for more than 16mp in their work and they can get just as good results from those system that they got from their FF systems.

It is these guys that Pentax is going after. The professionals. Look at the announced lenses and road mapped lenses so far. I truly believe that Pentax is not making this camera for the Pentax fans. They are making this camera to get the Canon and Nikon professionals who are mad at their brands for whatever reason to give them another choice.



But look at all the hypotheticals going around here and yes, it's rude... but wake up!

We have our poll up for what someone will pay for this camera. 1800-2399 is leading with 1800 or in second and the 2400-3000 range in third.
Most of the people have deiced 24mp is not good enough, needs to be 36/42/50mp.
Rumor is new advanced AF system and flash system
the usual Pentax out fitment of high end build quality and full weather sealing.

This is what I'm expecting, have been expecting since announcement, and wish that people would come to grips with as being the most logical camera based on the very little information we have:


36mp sensor with a crop mode
new AF matrix
no pop up flash (maybe radio)
tilty screen
increased flash sync with high speed sync
pixel shift
insert K3 II spec sheet here

launch lenses of:

16-24mm f2.8
24-70mm f2.8
70-200mm f2.8
24-105mm f4

This camera will be priced... $2999
16-24 $2200
24-70 $1500
70-200 $2400

expect at least one new flash gun

Do not expect a second body to be released at the same time, maybe a few months down the road. Expect it to be a D610/D750 equivalent camera priced in the $2000 range.


Just like the 645D/z were not targeted at the Pentax loyalists but the medium format professionals, expect the same from the upcoming Full Frame... it will be priced and spec'd to entice the professionals to switch.


if 24mp is good enough for wedding, sports, and journalism pros... why is it not good enough for the majority of users on this board? The majority of those shooters are avoiding the D810 and 5Dr because of the resolution.

08-18-2015, 01:37 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote

if 24mp is good enough for wedding, sports, and journalism pros... why is it not good enough for the majority of users on this board? The majority of those shooters are avoiding the D810 and 5Dr because of the resolution.

Loved your post, Agree with 95%... At least I don't feel nuts (much)

On the last question: Wildlife shooters like us doing BIFs and Mobile critters need res to crop a good shot moving so fast their tough to frame, and those of us selling 14x20 at 300 dpi or 20x30 at same or composite murals, need the pixies. The res of wedding photogs 8x10 at 300dpi most, sports photogs 8x10 at 200dpi in magazines or print, web delivered far less. So I guess it's media driven for me?
08-18-2015, 01:43 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
sports, and journalism pros
These folk are usually shooting less than high quality jpegs for fast uploading back to base.
08-18-2015, 01:46 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
Loved your post, Agree with 95%... At least I don't feel nuts (much)

On the last question: Wildlife shooters like us doing BIFs and Mobile critters need res to crop a good shot moving so fast their tough to frame, and those of us selling 14x20 at 300 dpi or 20x30 at same or composite murals, need the pixies. The res of wedding photogs 8x10 at 300dpi most, sports photogs 8x10 at 200dpi in magazines or print, web delivered far less. So I guess it's media driven for me?
Canon had an answer... 7DMKII. I don't think full frame with bazooka lenses are key here. but not a wild life shooter so really, I can't speak for what I'm not experienced with. But that being said, I do know that my wedding mural that is about 5 feet on it's long edge was shot on 12mp D3 and it looks beautiful and sharp even up close.




---------- Post added 08-18-2015 at 02:46 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kerrowdown Quote
These folk are usually shooting less than high quality jpegs for fast uploading back to base.
true!
08-18-2015, 01:56 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
Just like the 645D/z were not targeted at the Pentax loyalists but the medium format professionals, expect the same from the upcoming Full Frame... it will be priced and spec'd to entice the professionals to switch.
Yes, it could be a plausible senario. Due to limited market share (sales budget, hence R&D expenses budget), nearly invisible in brick and mortar retailers, mediocre after sale services, and the cost of switching from one brand (proprietary mount) to another brand, Pentax and Ricoh did wait until the improvement of the APSC sensor in terms of image quality reached a point of saturation (i.e little IQ benefit from the 16Mpixel K-5 and 24Mpixel), so that it made sense for the K-mount user base to spend the money for an upgrade from APSC DSLR to full frame DSLR. Canon and Nikon had more financial freedom and that's why they commercialized full frame cameras much earlier than Pentax, but in the first few years, Canon and Nikon full frames were known to be less profitable than the APS product lines. So, Pentax does not primarily intend to compete with Canon and Nikon, because they have no chance. Pentax do some innovation when it does not cost much to do so, for example pixel shift, Sony, Canon and Nikon can do it anytime, but they don't care, they have other products to achieve a higher resolution than a K-3, without the need of a tripod and completely static subjects. Obviously, depending on how much Pentaxians are financially and emotionally inversed in the k-mount, their view point is more or less objective. Some people rave about a 77 ltd, until they discover that a full frame and a 70-200 zoom on it does a better job. It's sad, but I saw a lot of Pentaxians (including some from this forum who are now silent) try a Nikon or Canon full frame and then stop taking pictures with their 31ltd and 77ltd on APSC. When I suggested that a second Pentax body , firmware limited at 24Mpx (possible for a small crew like Ricoh imaging) to avoid Pentaxians having a limited budget to switch to cheaper Nikon full frames, it triggered a lot of opposition from passionate Pentaxians. Funny was even that people would affirm with absolute certainty what Ricoh will do (funny from anyone having no insider info). Passion and emotions for a brand of camera is good, but may involves some kind of blindness.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-18-2015 at 02:12 PM.
08-18-2015, 02:08 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
we were talking about this at our recent afternoon models and photographers meet up locally, and it became a pretty passionate conversation because the bulk of us are currently shooting Nikon.

There are a few different shooters, and what it comes down to is who is Pentax targeting. You look at the crew of us out there and you can kind of see what's going on.


The people just getting started or doing this straight up for fun were carrying kids of high end APSC gear. A few guys who do great images but never want to do it for money are shooting with D7100, 70D, Sony A7.
The people who do a lot of weddings and are 100% working photographers are running either Canon 5D mk3 or Nikon D600/D750. Not wanting 36 or 50mp because of speed of the camera and size of the files
The people doing fashion or landscape are mostly using D810's with the odd 5DMk3, but two of the Canon users specifically looking at upgrading to Hassleblad or the 5DS. (Pentax 645Z they omit due to the flash system and general mantra of the brand. I fought for us)

Then the circle kind of started. The people doing composite work or landscape running D810/D800 high res stuff originally came from Canon and the 5DMk2. Landscape guys changed for the 800/810 because of Resolution. The Canon/Nikon guys who got mad with lack of innovation and same old same old went to the A7 series. The guys who got tired of carrying around extra weight went to m4/3 or Fuji because they don't see a need for more than 16mp in their work and they can get just as good results from those system that they got from their FF systems.

It is these guys that Pentax is going after. The professionals. Look at the announced lenses and road mapped lenses so far. I truly believe that Pentax is not making this camera for the Pentax fans. They are making this camera to get the Canon and Nikon professionals who are mad at their brands for whatever reason to give them another choice.



But look at all the hypotheticals going around here and yes, it's rude... but wake up!

We have our poll up for what someone will pay for this camera. 1800-2399 is leading with 1800 or in second and the 2400-3000 range in third.
Most of the people have deiced 24mp is not good enough, needs to be 36/42/50mp.
Rumor is new advanced AF system and flash system
the usual Pentax out fitment of high end build quality and full weather sealing.

This is what I'm expecting, have been expecting since announcement, and wish that people would come to grips with as being the most logical camera based on the very little information we have:


36mp sensor with a crop mode
new AF matrix
no pop up flash (maybe radio)
tilty screen
increased flash sync with high speed sync
pixel shift
insert K3 II spec sheet here

launch lenses of:

16-24mm f2.8
24-70mm f2.8
70-200mm f2.8
24-105mm f4

This camera will be priced... $2999
16-24 $2200
24-70 $1500
70-200 $2400

expect at least one new flash gun

Do not expect a second body to be released at the same time, maybe a few months down the road. Expect it to be a D610/D750 equivalent camera priced in the $2000 range.


Just like the 645D/z were not targeted at the Pentax loyalists but the medium format professionals, expect the same from the upcoming Full Frame... it will be priced and spec'd to entice the professionals to switch.


if 24mp is good enough for wedding, sports, and journalism pros... why is it not good enough for the majority of users on this board? The majority of those shooters are avoiding the D810 and 5Dr because of the resolution.
Yes, it's pretty hard to argue with your analysis though I'd throw in a couple of new primes coming out quite soon. Ricoh are one of the smaller camera outfits so I guess it would make sense for them to concentrate on products where they can achieve good returns on high sticker prices. The "bargain basement" end is where they are weakest because they don't have the facilities to produce huge volumes nor the marketing coverage for wall-to-wall branding stuff. So leave that to CanoNikon et al. However, I'd guess Ricoh will need to be pretty serious about marketing any FF, if only to break that negative mantra you mention.

I see this as the first step in taking the whole shebang up the market. Maybe Ricoh have looked in their crystal ball and seen that the days of APS-C are numbered or at least the days of profitable APS-C from their POV. No matter how much amazing tech they pack into their APS-C cameras, they are still obliged to sell them at steadily decreasing prices. For a biz that can't be good news.
08-18-2015, 02:16 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Yes, it's pretty hard to argue with your analysis though I'd throw in a couple of new primes coming out quite soon. Ricoh are one of the smaller camera outfits so I guess it would make sense for them to concentrate on products where they can achieve good returns on high sticker prices. The "bargain basement" end is where they are weakest because they don't have the facilities to produce huge volumes nor the marketing coverage for wall-to-wall branding stuff. So leave that to CanoNikon et al. However, I'd guess Ricoh will need to be pretty serious about marketing any FF, if only to break that negative mantra you mention.

I see this as the first step in taking the whole shebang up the market. Maybe Ricoh have looked in their crystal ball and seen that the days of APS-C are numbered or at least the days of profitable APS-C from their POV. No matter how much amazing tech they pack into their APS-C cameras, they are still obliged to sell them at steadily decreasing prices. For a biz that can't be good news.
Primes will be after the FF release I believe is what @Kenspo has mentioned.

I don't know if ASP-C will ever disappear. But what I do think is that we need the pros' to be enticed and support/endorse the cameras first and get them to be just a strong a house hold name as Nikon, Canon, and Sony. At that point they can get the brick and motor stores and get more people buying entry level K mount to work their way up to the professional series. People would be more inclined to jump on the Pentax wagon if they knew more about them.

Our local facebook group has a post once every month or so about "what camera should I buy". I usually ignore them. But one person said they love taking photos of lightning storms and they were worried their current camera couldn't take the punishment of the storm environments. But they also wanted it to take good people pictures because that is mostly what they do. Perfect for Pentax. Got a few haters when I recommended them, and these people had no idea that Pentax was still making quality product, they thought they outsourced stuff to China and it was rebranded copies of Canikon made Asian (KS1 I think is what did that). I sent them to the K30, K3, and KS2 review from TCSTV to wake the up a bit and a few other Pentaxians jumped to my aid.


The problem the Ricoh faces is that they can build a better D810 than Nikon can (and we know they can... see K5 vs D7100 for example). But if they build a pro grade system and they don't get the pro-grade support from other companies or the after-sales support. (I deal with the dealers, they have always given me great support. They always tell me Pentax has supported them better than Canon for example). The it's going to fail. If Pentax can get brands like Elinchrom, Profoto, Sigma, Tamron to jump on board and deliver the high quality gear then I think we got a chance. Sony's getting there...but Pentax need to overthrow them. I think they can. Sony is too confused. Ricoh have a goal and know what they need to do to get there.
08-18-2015, 02:24 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The "bargain basement" end is where they are weakest because they don't have the facilities to produce huge volumes nor the marketing coverage for wall-to-wall branding stuff.
Here is made the assumption of high volume. But volume is like dynamic range, it spans from zero to millions of units per year. With less than 10% market share + decreasing total DSLR market (in units per year), the problem of Ricoh is not production capacity, (by the way, any company is able to increase it's prod capacity by duplicating production lines, it takes a bit of time but it"s easy to purchase extra capacity when sales are growing). The problem of Ricoh is going to achieve enough sales to cover their R&D expenses. And unlike people wrongly wrote, having two body with shared R&D and different pricing/margin is better suited for low volumes, since the price of camera components is about the same from 10k per year to 100k per year and to achieve lower component costs, volume have to climb in the range of several millions per year. From 10K/year to 1Million units per year, the gross margin is nearly constant and in this case what matter the most is to pay off fixed R&D and SG&A costs by selling as many cameras possible respective to serviceable market segment.
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