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08-23-2015, 09:17 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
#1 reason I won't buy a FF...

No Ricoh on the back.
As far as is understandable, you want the Ricoh logo on the K-2's back.
And as far as i know, the Ricoh label once used on the back of the K-3 is not anymore there on K-3II, 645 Z nor any Pentax branded product.
But you still can find Ricoh Imaging printed somewhere underneath all Pentax cameras ....

08-23-2015, 09:19 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
He's kidding. ☺

There's a whole thread mocking that attitude about the K-3.
I really hope that he is just kidding cuz that attitude doesnt help at all.
08-24-2015, 04:59 PM   #48
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That financial report makes no sense, because all important details are undisclosed and gain is supposedly derived when taking out of account certain "shuffling of things" no one understands but which will not be visible in the next report.

It is crazy. Fact remains that brand has lost some 40% of its previous market share since Ricoh took over, and is now at 5% or lower than that. And is now supposedly "happy with its outlook" and can make "some profit"? At the expense of market share loss and user-base loss? Either managers are plainly dumb or so naive they want us to believe "all is fine".

It isn't. K3 and some lenses in the US are selling at prices so low, at cost almost, or close to that price. While Canon 7DII sells at twice the price of the K-3, and Canon gains the market share Pentax lost. Now tell me, what is the genius of Canon that Ricoh cannot or is unwilling to understand, which allows Canon to sell even less 7DII bodies than Ricoh K3s, and get several times more profit out of them, gain market share and healthy marketing money which does not need accounting tricks to be presented?

I remember the main criticism of the old Pentax was its US pricing policy, which drew the brand down the drain. Ricoh still did not fix that major problem, because they did not invest into extra K-mount bodies that elevate the value and general perception of the brand, but made bodies that further confuse the market and lower the value of brand. They have a strategy fit for low-value mirrorless market, yet they certainly are not in that market.

That has cost them market share loss. But lets see what autumn brings; hopefully, they will finally stop the fall with FF bodies and start making sense. But I will bet their share will continue to fall for a while, and be as low as 3-4% in the next year, despite fire sale of the K-S1/S2 which will inevitably follow launch of the FF bodies. It takes time for thrusters to move things slowly upwards...

Last edited by Uluru; 08-24-2015 at 05:21 PM.
08-24-2015, 08:06 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Fact remains that brand has lost some 40% of its previous market share since Ricoh took over
Okay, you say this is fact, not opinion - what is the source of this we can all look up?

08-24-2015, 08:09 PM   #50
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I've said it before, we should be thanking Ricoh for saving pentax rather than spitting on them. K-mount would be a dead mount if it wasn't for Ricoh. Instead we are getting new lenses, new bodies, and hopefully a FF.
08-24-2015, 11:01 PM - 1 Like   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
I've said it before, we should be thanking Ricoh for saving pentax rather than spitting on them. K-mount would be a dead mount if it wasn't for Ricoh. Instead we are getting new lenses, new bodies, and hopefully a FF.
And Uluru back...
08-25-2015, 03:04 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
That financial report makes no sense, because all important details are undisclosed and gain is supposedly derived when taking out of account certain "shuffling of things" no one understands but which will not be visible in the next report.

It is crazy. Fact remains that brand has lost some 40% of its previous market share since Ricoh took over, and is now at 5% or lower than that. And is now supposedly "happy with its outlook" and can make "some profit"? At the expense of market share loss and user-base loss? Either managers are plainly dumb or so naive they want us to believe "all is fine".

It isn't. K3 and some lenses in the US are selling at prices so low, at cost almost, or close to that price. While Canon 7DII sells at twice the price of the K-3, and Canon gains the market share Pentax lost. Now tell me, what is the genius of Canon that Ricoh cannot or is unwilling to understand, which allows Canon to sell even less 7DII bodies than Ricoh K3s, and get several times more profit out of them, gain market share and healthy marketing money which does not need accounting tricks to be presented?

I remember the main criticism of the old Pentax was its US pricing policy, which drew the brand down the drain. Ricoh still did not fix that major problem, because they did not invest into extra K-mount bodies that elevate the value and general perception of the brand, but made bodies that further confuse the market and lower the value of brand. They have a strategy fit for low-value mirrorless market, yet they certainly are not in that market.

That has cost them market share loss. But lets see what autumn brings; hopefully, they will finally stop the fall with FF bodies and start making sense. But I will bet their share will continue to fall for a while, and be as low as 3-4% in the next year, despite fire sale of the K-S1/S2 which will inevitably follow launch of the FF bodies. It takes time for thrusters to move things slowly upwards...
Welcome back, Uluru.

I thought things were a little too upbeat around here.

I think you are wrong about the K3 selling "at cost." Ricoh's model is not in line with that. They may have sold the K-01 at cost to unload it, but I haven't seen any cameras since that time. The thing is the R and D is paid for and Ricoh is interested in getting folks into the brand. If they can give them a high quality camera for a decent price and not lose money on it, why wouldn't they?

Not sure where your information on the shrinking market for Ricoh comes from either.
08-25-2015, 03:16 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
That financial report makes no sense, because all important details are undisclosed and gain is supposedly derived when taking out of account certain "shuffling of things" no one understands but which will not be visible in the next report.
That financial report makes sense, it's just not for us - but for people interested on a broader view of the entire Ricoh Group.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
It is crazy. Fact remains that brand has lost some 40% of its previous market share since Ricoh took over, and is now at 5% or lower than that. And is now supposedly "happy with its outlook" and can make "some profit"? At the expense of market share loss and user-base loss? Either managers are plainly dumb or so naive they want us to believe "all is fine".
You know what's crazy? To boldly claim that Pentax lost 40% of its previous market share since Ricoh took over, without presenting any proof, while calling Ricoh people 'plainly dumb' and 'naive'. How would you know this, anyway? And why do you feel so strong about it?

If anything, Pentax was affected first and foremost by Hoya: it was all downsizing and cost cutting, IIRC Hoya even said their strategy was to protect the margins at the expense of market share. And after the batch of lenses which was already under development, they only approved enough to keep Pentax going. Then things stopped to a grinding halt.
Don't forget, in 2011 Pentax wasn't able to launch a single K-mount product: Hoya was preparing them for sale, and any such expense was a big no-no. Do you think that didn't had any impact on their market share?

08-25-2015, 04:17 PM   #54
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I dont see the point claming a 40% loss of market share... for what i have seen Ricoh is trying to grow their market with great products at low prices, they know that if a new client buys a Pentax they will eventually become good clients in the future, even if they got just the basic body,.. the only people that could be leaving the brand is the ones that NEEDS NOW a FF camera, but otherwise i think that their user base could be growing ( dont know for sure cuz none of us have the real numbers to compare body sells ). Announcing the FF early this year they hold back some people that was almost ready to jump out.. I see people happy with their K3s and K50s.. and now with KS2s.. so.. why they loss market? .. I believe that when the FF is out the leak of costumers will decrease, people will se a path from basic cameras to more profesional bodys ( that was a big reason why they never could hold clients after certain point ), the Pentax 645Z is having a lot of workshops and presentations in the US ( accourding to their FB page ), and i believe that the same will happen when FF is out.
08-25-2015, 04:40 PM   #55
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QuoteQuote:
I believe that when the FF is out the leak of costumers will decrease,
There will always be customers leaving Pentax and customers coming to Pentax, the actual idea of a "leak" assume that more leave than come, and that is a very suspect assumption. Most of the leak is from the high end, most of the customers switching or becoming Pentax users for the first time is in the low end and the 645z. Straight law of economics, the low end is much larger than the high end. SO if Pentax loses 10% of it's high end customers and gains 10% of it;s low end customers, it's gaining way more than it's losing. As well many of that new 10% coming in both K30s and K-50s will migrate up to K-3 type bodies and purchase some high quality glass.

This is all assumptions and we have no way of knowing if any of it is true... but the my point is, there are more reasons for thinking Pentax is doing really well, than there are for thinking they've lost 50% of their sales since Rich took over and are doing poorly. You can make up any scenario you want about what's happening, but it's all garbage unless based on some solid facts. None of the above is anything other than garbage, my own analysis as well, I guess the difference is I know mine is garbage. Some people seem to believe their garbage is fact. All we know is that Ricoh made money, and that though the division Pentax is in for accounting purposes lost money, they lost money on the sale of a clothing division and it probably had nothing to do with Pentax. That doesn't equate to "Pentax is losing market share", or "Pentax is losing money.", or "Pentax isn't profitable" or "Pentax is poorly managed". It could just s easily mean, "Pentax is gaining market share". or " the value of Pentax's overall revenue increased", or "Pentax is picking up new customers but not fast enough to increase market share" It could mean any or all of those things and a bunch more possible conclusions or it could mean none of them.

All it means is, Pentax didn't make enough money to cover the write down Ricoh took on the clothing division it sold, and it's revenue increase (if any) wasn't enough to make up for the lost revenue from the clothing division for the last quarter. Anything else is speculation.
08-25-2015, 05:19 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
There will always be customers leaving Pentax and customers coming to Pentax, the actual idea of a "leak" assume that more leave than come, and that is a very suspect assumption. Most of the leak is from the high end, most of the customers switching or becoming Pentax users for the first time is in the low end and the 645z. Straight law of economics, the low end is much larger than the high end. SO if Pentax loses 10% of it's high end customers and gains 10% of it;s low end customers, it's gaining way more than it's losing. As well many of that new 10% coming in both K30s and K-50s will migrate up to K-3 type bodies and purchase some high quality glass.
Thats totally correct normhead.. the leak of users are at the high end market, people that want something more than the K3s models. And as you said, and at least IMO i cant see where the 40% loss is.. actually i do think that their users base is growing, in my case in the last 4 months 2 of my friends got their first DSLR and it was a Pentax, actually my closest friends they all use Pentax ( even my girlfriend ).
08-25-2015, 06:35 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I guess the difference is I know mine is garbage
So does Ayers.

For all we know Ricoh earns a ton of excess return on research performed by its optical and electrical engineers for the imaging part of their office machines businesses (more camera 'units' per dollar of research) - or vice versa upstreaming imaging research from cameras to machines. Clean digital high ISO is clean digital high ISO; broad dynamic range is broad dynamic range, after all.

That kind of return doesn't show up on Income Statements nor Earnings Reports.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-25-2015 at 06:40 PM.
08-26-2015, 06:34 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Ah, there we go. So if you look under "other" in the consolidated financials document, I guess that would correspond to the consumer imaging business.
I believe like much of their overall business the mainstay of Ricoh's digital camera business is actually industrial not consumer - their FA series of CCTV and security cameras and lenses etc and even stereo 'eyes' for factory robots. This commercial camera division is still a part of Ricoh corporate whereas the consumer cameras have been separated out into a subsidiary.

FA Camera/Lens | Industrial Products | Ricoh
08-26-2015, 06:51 AM - 1 Like   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
So does Ayers.

For all we know Ricoh earns a ton of excess return on research performed by its optical and electrical engineers for the imaging part of their office machines businesses (more camera 'units' per dollar of research) - or vice versa upstreaming imaging research from cameras to machines. Clean digital high ISO is clean digital high ISO; broad dynamic range is broad dynamic range, after all.

That kind of return doesn't show up on Income Statements nor Earnings Reports.
My real theory is that Pentax is just a money laundering front for the Japanese mob, provided by Ricoh for protection, and a few Giesha girls to entertain their execs. It's continued existence has absolutely nothing to do with our puny purchases and camera buying decisions, new product development or anything else related to the camera business. 90% of Pentax product is never produced, exists on paper only, is paid for with drug money and prostitution.

How else do you explain that Pentax claims to sell cameras, but no one ever sees them anywhere? They produce just enough cameras to convince the law that they are legit, not one camera more. When you are legitimizing Billions in drug money, what's the harm is running a 30 million dollar camera company? They consider it a business expense, just the cost of doing business.

Or to keep it short.. not one of you dudes is right about any of this. Pentax is dependent on vice, which is quite dependable. Pentax is not doomed.

Prove me wrong.

If they find me floating face down in the Madawaska River tomorrow, you'll know I was right.

Last edited by normhead; 08-26-2015 at 07:02 AM.
08-26-2015, 07:05 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
My real theory is that Pentax is just a money laundering front for the Japanese mob, provided by Ricoh for protection, and a few Giesha girls to entertain their execs. It's continued existence has absolutely nothing to do with our puny purchases and camera buying decisions, new product development or anything else related to the camera business. 90% of Pentax product is never produced, exists on paper only, is paid for with drug money and prostitution.

How else do you explain that Pentax claims to sell cameras, but no one ever sees them anywhere? They produce just enough cameras to convince the law that they are legit, not one camera more. When you are legitimizing Billions in drug money, what's the harm is running a 30 million dollar camera company? They consider it a business expense, just the cost of doing business.

Or to keep it short.. not one of you dudes is right about any of this. Pentax is dependent on vice, which is quite dependable. Pentax is not doomed.

Prove me wrong.

If they find me floating face down in the Madawaska River tomorrow, you'll know I was right.
I'll stick to this story...........sounds solid.



Happens in small way overhere. You push drugs on a local market and run a bar. No customers ever seen drinking in the bar, but still a good place to take your dirty money to the laundry.
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