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09-17-2015, 03:38 AM   #316
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I've never touched the video button on K-3 II, and with my previous model (k-5 II) I took about a 10 minute video. So, I'm not interested in any way about video capabilities on the new full frame.

I just want a competitive full frame to upgrade from my K-3 II (and a few new lenses). I can't upgrade over and over again to a body with APS-C sensor. If the full frame will be competitive, my K-3 II it will probably stick with me another few years, but at least I will be able to change bodies when scenario requires...
I don't use it either, but reviewers always seem to 'ding' Pentax on their video. I doubt they have sunk enough R and D resources into those features to make it a step above past cameras. Apparently video on the 645Z is there, but not very good at all.

09-17-2015, 03:40 AM   #317
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Perhaps Pentax are after the affluent amateur and not pro photographers.
09-17-2015, 04:15 AM   #318
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Both, when pro's use Pentax that will have an effect on how many amateurs will also buy the brand. That's why they are sponsoring pro's to shoot with Pentax.
09-17-2015, 04:23 AM   #319
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What they really need is shelf space in stores like Best Buy, and salespeople willing to show the product. That's what the majority of non-forum member buyers see. I can't imagine all the 5D, D610, etc., shooters I see in NYC have them because of the guys at Yankee Stadium have them. It's because the woman at the store said it was the best.

09-17-2015, 04:51 AM   #320
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
So all the pros who never had and still don't have the AF capabilities of the D750 have not been able to do their job up to now?
There are a good number of photographers who live at the edge of the capability of their hardware. There are shots they can't get because the hardware isn't quick enough or capable enough in low light, and when some hardware improvement comes along they can get those shots. The job changes as the hardware capabilities improve.

I happen to be at that edge most of the time. The slight improvement made in the 1.20 firmware meant that in some circumstances I could get shots I couldn't previously, and paradoxically there was a slight degrade in others. The improved reactivity made the center point effectively smaller.

Yesterday I had no shots that turned out due to the inability of the body to lock focus. It was an unusual light with a busy background. I'm not certain any other manufacturers wares would have done better, I shoot with friends who get some shots I miss and miss shots I get.

I can identify precisely the circumstances where the K3 AF falls short. There is ample low hanging fruit for Pentax to pick here. Competitive pressures mean that they have to address them.

Remember the reality these guys are facing. The easy shots get taken by someone's phone. The DSLR gets picked up for the hard ones, and it better be capable.
09-17-2015, 05:09 AM - 1 Like   #321
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
...One other problem is that Ricoh, I mean the Mother company, has zero interest in the camera division. They don't hire a photographer using a Pentax camera to promote their business. And they never ever will.........Because it doesn't say Ricoh on the camera, but Pentax. For them it's like every other camera.
That doesn't make sense to me. Why did Ricoh purchase Pentax, then? I'm curious to hear your theory.
09-17-2015, 05:22 AM   #322
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QuoteOriginally posted by rullrich Quote
No offence meant, Dan Rentea, but I don't understand why it needs to be competitive and to whom or what it needs to be so? To yourself, professionals or reviewers? Just curious...
It needs to be competitive for the range price that this full frame will be. If they come out with an entry level full frame, it has to be competitive with Canon 6D and Nikon D610, and so on.

Competitive for me means Af as good as our rivals, and high ISO as good as theirs. Video is not important to me. Otherwise...personally I will look on other brands.

Why? Because I doubt that Ricoh will release another full frame in the next few years if this one will not be as good as everyone is expecting. And it will take another 1-2 years before some good lenses will be released. But I'm willing to wait for those new lenses if the full frame will be competitive (at least for my point of view).
09-17-2015, 05:34 AM   #323
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I don't get the gloom. The K3 was a very serious camera body in a segment that the big guys were hoping to relegate to the low end consumer market. It can stand beside anyone in its market segment. Except in AF.

Pentax knows this. The 1.20 firmware rewrote a good portion of the AF function. Compare AF in movie mode pre and post, and you see what they did, and there were changes in the pdaf as well. I suspect they went to the limits of the hardware; the pdaf seems limited by some chokepoint in the data io between the various sensor modules.

More AF points, predictive and fast all demand processing resources, fast internal communication between the various bits of hardware, fast and accurate lens motor and feedback loops. The 150-450 has a wider lens communication protocol with all the buttons.

All the infrastructure that makes it possible also gives a few processor cycles to metering. The pixel shift with a fast pipeline could become very useful; if it could all happen in 1/250 it would be used an awful lot, and that is getting tantalizingly close to full frame 60 fpm video if they can keep the dam thing from melting. And gives them room to improve the flash protocols and performance.

Pentax is on the enviable position where they have unique offerings and a clientele that see possibility and is pushing them and will buy. Almost every offering they have come out with over the last couple years has had the odd characteristic where it is almost like they asked me personally what I needed and would spend money on. Even the Theta SS, with a waterproof container, I will probably get one for the next salmon spawn. I've been cranking through ideas how to get a specific shot in a certain location, and here they produce the answer.

Pentax is about two iterations behind the other guys in AF performance and they know it. I suspect they will make major strides. It is an iterative process where corner cases are chased down and fixed.

09-17-2015, 05:53 AM   #324
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
I don't get the gloom. The K3 was a very serious camera body in a segment that the big guys were hoping to relegate to the low end consumer market. It can stand beside anyone in its market segment. Except in AF.
K-3 (and/or K-3 II which I have) it is a serious competitor to Canon 7D Mark II, or to Nikon D7100/D7200 in image quality and build quality, I do agree with you here.

It lags behind in:
- Af, but it is visible for me only with tracking subjects. If the subjects stand still, the Af is very fast and precise
- flash system (sync speed up to 1/250s on Canon and Nikon, 1/180 on Pentax K-3/K-3 II)
- triggers to control flashes in HSS and/or TTL
- lenses (SDM makes me sick on DA* lenses, and they are very slow) and screw drive is very noisy on the other lenses
- service (if camera fails on you)

I love my K-3 II, but there are a few important features to improve for Pentax users. Let's only hope that Ricoh will keep going with their good work.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 09-17-2015 at 05:58 AM.
09-17-2015, 05:59 AM   #325
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
I don't get the gloom...
Are you new here?
09-17-2015, 06:36 AM   #326
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
This is where your argument falls apart. Ricoh specifically WON'T offer comparable cameras. Why bother? We already have comparable cameras.

Pentax is an alternative - difference mix of features. If a buyer wants / needs a CaNikon, by all means go ahead and just get one.
In what way will they "not be comparable"? If you haven't noticed the lens road map has a D-FA* 70-200mm F/2.8 which is directly comparable to Canon, Nikon, & Sony. The new FF lenses are all directly comparable to Canon, Nikon & Sony versions.

You can't have a substitute good or brand that is not comparable to the goods/brand that it is a substitute for. It simply isn't possible. If Ricoh wants to take market share from Canon, Nikon, or Sony, then Ricoh has to produce cameras that have features that are competitive with Canon, Nikon, & Sony.

The Pentax Ambassadors that have posted on various websites have all said the same thing. Ricoh wants to go after the professional photographers. That is why Ricoh hired these guys. Professionals have specific needs and these needs are what drive the market and the features. Fast, accurate AF happens to be one of those important features. PDAF technology is basically ancient tech, and there is no reason that Ricoh can't produce a system with competitive AF. I think they will. Actually, I think Ricoh will produce a camera with better AF than the D750.
09-17-2015, 07:21 AM   #327
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
In what way will they "not be comparable"? If you haven't noticed the lens road map has a D-FA* 70-200mm F/2.8 which is directly comparable to Canon, Nikon, & Sony. The new FF lenses are all directly comparable to Canon, Nikon & Sony versions.

You can't have a substitute good or brand that is not comparable to the goods/brand that it is a substitute for. It simply isn't possible. If Ricoh wants to take market share from Canon, Nikon, or Sony, then Ricoh has to produce cameras that have features that are competitive with Canon, Nikon, & Sony.

The Pentax Ambassadors that have posted on various websites have all said the same thing. Ricoh wants to go after the professional photographers. That is why Ricoh hired these guys. Professionals have specific needs and these needs are what drive the market and the features. Fast, accurate AF happens to be one of those important features. PDAF technology is basically ancient tech, and there is no reason that Ricoh can't produce a system with competitive AF. I think they will. Actually, I think Ricoh will produce a camera with better AF than the D750.
They aren't putting out a 70-200 because Nikon has one. They are doing it because that range and speed is required for some photographers. Same with the 150-450. It is a very nice flexible, fast enough, good price point, high iq range that people want to buy. And the same with other baseline function. Fast accurate and reliable AF is a baseline function in a modern camera. As is Iso 1600 shooting, and a bunch of other things that were either very special or non existent not too long ago. How many bodies can't do multiple exposure stacking? Now Olympus has focus stacking built in. A great idea that has been possible for a long time but never implemented. It will become baseline function. Geo tagging, a reasonably functional movie mode, instant startup. Remote operating mode is another one that is expected.
09-17-2015, 07:28 AM   #328
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QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
Perhaps Pentax are after the affluent amateur and not pro photographers.
Not according to Kenspo.
09-17-2015, 07:29 AM - 1 Like   #329
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QuoteOriginally posted by LightBug Quote
So you are saying "Pentax is Doomed"?!
Well not if they come with a good camera priced below D750. There is a market for such a camera. Lots of hobbyist that use Pentax or people who have gone to other brands but still have some older k-mount lenses from film days at home doing nothing.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I would just say that Ricoh isn't dumb. They will release a camera that has the best auto focus they can muster along with every feature they can think to throw at it otherwise -- pixel shift/astro tracer/IBIS. The release price will probably be pretty expensive, but they won't hesitate to drop it pretty quickly if they need to in order to move units.
Pixel shift is a gimmick to me. The astro traceren is for a very small market segment. Yes you sell some camera's, but not many for this specificaties type of photography. IBIS is also in Sony 7 series, so it has to be really good. Maybe they can license the IBIS from Sony, that would lots cheaper then designing it themselves.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
This is where your argument falls apart. Ricoh specifically WON'T offer comparable cameras. Why bother? We already have comparable cameras.

Pentax is an alternative - difference mix of features. If a buyer wants / needs a CaNikon, by all means go ahead and just get one.
The oddballs of Pentax like K-01 and K-S1 weren't to succesfilm in the market, even if they are great camera's. People do like some old fashion style.

QuoteOriginally posted by DennisH Quote
Well, they gave it a good run. Often products need to be released (or announced) before they fail, but it's nice that we don't have to go through all that nonsens.
They presented in februari a brick looking like a normal style dslr. Wich it probably is going to be. The difference is going to be in wich sensor, wich processor and at what price, but lots of it would be like a buffed up K-3.

QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
That doesn't make sense to me. Why did Ricoh purchase Pentax, then? I'm curious to hear your theory.
Ricoh purchases Pentax at a time that the market for camera's and dslr's was still good. Since 2011 that market has collapsed. Ricoh is a global company with over 200 different working company's. One of them is the little camera division. The camera division is the only business that is a consumer orientaded business while all others are b2b. Local Ricoh business has nothing to do with the camera branche. And also doesn't do anything with them. So if some Ricoh business hire a photographer to do a Job, it is someone working in their area and the chance of that being someone with a Pentax is minimal. And not needed, as long as the images are good for the purpose needed, who cares if it's a Nikon or Canon used.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
K-3 (and/or K-3 II which I have) it is a serious competitor to Canon 7D Mark II, or to Nikon D7100/D7200 in image quality and build quality, I do agree with you here.

It lags behind in:
- Af, but it is visible for me only with tracking subjects. If the subjects stand still, the Af is very fast and precise
- flash system (sync speed up to 1/250s on Canon and Nikon, 1/180 on Pentax K-3/K-3 II)
- triggers to control flashes in HSS and/or TTL
- lenses (SDM makes me sick on DA* lenses, and they are very slow) and screw drive is very noisy on the other lenses
- service (if camera fails on you)
Yes Pentax makes great camera's, but your list does make a big difference for lots of people, or for reviews online.
09-17-2015, 07:48 AM   #330
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Yes Pentax makes great camera's, but your list does make a big difference for lots of people, or for reviews online.
Even for me, as an amateur photographer it makes a big difference. For example, I have my K-3 II in the affected serial number and it takes up to 3 weeks for the official Pentax dealer to send it for inspection and return it to me. Show me a PRO willing to wait that long. Luckily my camera works fine after more than 7.000 shots.
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