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07-01-2008, 06:53 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
You forget that Pentax have a pro and semi pro user based that is more concerned about high resolution photography than Nikon and Canon have ever had. The medium format lines have been very popular and Pentax primes K-mount lenses have reached lengendary staus in image quality. I have no doubt that Pentax will target this market. Anything else will be a gross mistake.
If you look at Nikons FF it is about speed, not resolution. Nikon is also targeting their core group; the photo journalists.
nedB said a few weeks back that Pentax are going to push more into a niche player, that fits with what you're saying and with WendyB's comments... grab a chunk of the 645 / mf market back...

07-01-2008, 07:38 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Here is a test of the DA Limiteds:

DA Limited on Film | PentaxLife

The 40mm and 70mm work fine, but the 21mm does not. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the new DA 35 will work on FF either. Both the DA200mm and 300mm are FF capable and obviously all the FA lens will work. I'm not sure about any of the zooms.

Since Pentax isn't at all clear which lenses are FF capable and which ones aren't now that they are "unofficially" making FF DA lenses someone needs to pin a thread to the top of the lens discussion forum with a list of all compatible lens and corresponding tests. It's a pain to do a search and dg through all the threads on this subject just to get to the verdict on each lens.
DA35 covers approx. 1.08 crop.
07-02-2008, 02:23 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
You forget that Pentax have a pro and semi pro user based that is more concerned about high resolution photography than Nikon and Canon have ever had. The medium format lines have been very popular and Pentax primes K-mount lenses have reached legendary status in image quality. I have no doubt that Pentax will target this market. Anything else will be a gross mistake.
If you look at Nikons FF it is about speed, not resolution. Nikon is also targeting their core group; the photo journalists.
The pool of pros and semi-pros (whatever that term means) using Pentax is still very small in relation to those using Nikon and Canon. That is a fact that's true now as it was during the era of 35mm film.

Any working pro or serious enthusiast is always concerned with getting the best possible resolution and I don't believe for one minute that users of Nikon, Canon, Sony or any other brand, are any different than Pentax users. They too want high resolution.

Just how popular Pentax medium format cameras were is questionable. Pentax entered the 6 x 4.5cm camera market when Mamiya and Bronica were already pretty well established. Pentax's market share in this segment is certainly not as a market leader. I should know because I was a Pentax 67 and Pentax 645N user; but I also owned a Mamiya and Hasselblad too.

I not so sure I'd want to make any claim that Pentax alone has lenses deserving of legendary status because every other make have their own gems.

I'm sure the 12 megapixel FX sensor is capable of fine resolution and excellent noise control. However I can see a camera with specs like this to cater to a pretty wide swathe of photographers, not just photo journalists or sports shooters.
07-02-2008, 04:47 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Any working pro or serious enthusiast is always concerned with getting the best possible resolution and I don't believe for one minute that users of Nikon, Canon, Sony or any other brand, are any different than Pentax users. They too want high resolution.

Just how popular Pentax medium format cameras were is questionable. Pentax entered the 6 x 4.5cm camera market when Mamiya and Bronica were already pretty well established. Pentax's market share in this segment is certainly not as a market leader. I should know because I was a Pentax 67 and Pentax 645N user; but I also owned a Mamiya and Hasselblad too..


If Nikon and Canon user had been as concerned about image quality they would have used medium format too. Pentax, among the big brands, has a special place in high res photography. Nikon and Canon have a stronger emphasis on speed.

The Pentax MF line was very sucessful. They totally dominated the outdoor/nature photography market. They had up to 50% marketshare in the worlds largest MF market; Japan and enjoyed healthy share elsewhere. The 645N was the worlds most sold MF slr camera. No wonder Pentax is keen to grab a share of the former market.

07-02-2008, 09:50 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
If Nikon and Canon user had been as concerned about image quality they would have used medium format too. Pentax, among the big brands, has a special place in high res photography. Nikon and Canon have a stronger emphasis on speed.
What rubbish! Why would Canon & Nikon users want to go to medium format when they already have top end cameras that are capable of very high image quality? Moreover digital medium format is astronomically expensive and consequently this means a very small user base. I don't know where you got the idea about Pentax having a special place in high res photography. Pentax is still playing catch-up with the market leaders.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The Pentax MF line was very sucessful. They totally dominated the outdoor/nature photography market. They had up to 50% marketshare in the worlds largest MF market; Japan and enjoyed healthy share elsewhere. The 645N was the worlds most sold MF slr camera. No wonder Pentax is keen to grab a share of the former market.
Again I don't know where you got your sources of info or statistics. Pentax was a late entrant in offering 645 cameras. Mamiya and Bronica were just as successful if not more so with their 645 & 67 format cameras. The outdoor/nature user base is relatively small compared to the commercial studio segment in MF. I seriously doubt the Pentax 645N was the most sold MF camera as you claim. Even if it did, that's history.

As I stated elsewhere, the majority of commercial studio photographers (at least the ones I know personally in the US & Australia) who shot MF film as the staple have migrated to digital for the benefit of quicker workflow and switched to Canons and Nikons DSLRs for the most part. It will be a stretch of imagination if Pentax can hope to regain ex-MF users when it has no product or working prototype to show at this present moment.
07-02-2008, 10:24 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
What rubbish! Why would Canon & Nikon users want to go to medium format when they already have top end cameras that are capable of very high image quality? nt.

Ask them. They did in hordes. You don't don't seem to understand what I'm saying. The biggest customer base for Pentax MF camera from high-end Nikon and Canon users. Pentax catered to the high-res photographers whereas Nikon and Canon catered to the photo journalists. This is where the company comes from and none of them have changed basic philosophy. Therefore you can expect more high-res from Pentax at the expense of speed. Even the K20D illustrate this as it has the highest resolution of any aps DSLR. And the Nikon D3 possible the lowest resolving FF DSLR we will ever see.
07-02-2008, 10:55 AM   #67
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Well I know quite a number of working pros who are quite happy using current DSLRs and who have little inclination or reason to switch back to digital medium format.

Bottom line is they are already entrenched using their current gear that there is no compelling reason to switch and commit to expensive medium format gear. Pros use gear that get the job done, it's wishful thinking that they will automatically commit to any digital MF camera that Pentax has yet to roll out.
07-02-2008, 02:27 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Well I know quite a number of working pros who are quite happy using current DSLRs and who have little inclination or reason to switch back to digital medium format.

Bottom line is they are already entrenched using their current gear that there is no compelling reason to switch and commit to expensive medium format gear. Pros use gear that get the job done, it's wishful thinking that they will automatically commit to any digital MF camera that Pentax has yet to roll out.
Two years ago, nobody here would have said there would be such "affordable" FF DSLRs and such a "big" market/marketting thing.

07-02-2008, 03:43 PM   #69
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Gee this thread has gone off-topic. Why couldn't we just have a discussion on this camera? Maybe a comparison to the D3 and D300 too. Why does every thread discussing a competitors model disolve into a discussion about what people want/predict in Pentax's new offerings? There are more than enough threads to discuss that, pages of them infact.

No wonder I'm steering clear of this forum more and more, hundreds of pages of speculation. Pentax doesn't have a pro model, they may be making one but there have been no official announcements. Deal with it. They don't have a full frame body, and may not be making one. Deal with it. The don't have a medium-format body, and probably aren't making one. Deal with it.

Adam. :ugh:
07-02-2008, 04:31 PM   #70
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Hi creampuff

Re your observation:

QuoteQuote:
Well I know quite a number of working pros who are quite happy using current DSLRs and who have little inclination or reason to switch back to digital medium format.
A few decades ago if you were scraping a living working in a studio environment when film emulsion was still the
de facto standard, if you wished to be taken SERIOUSLY by your professional peers, chances are that you were shooting either Hasselblad 6 x 6cm, Mamiya 6 x 7cm, Pentax 6 x 7cm or possibly Bronica at a pinch (if you were on your uppers !). The Press boys and photo-journalists had more-or-less migrated over to 35mm kit by then (speed being the main requirement...so not much change there then !), whilst 5 x 4 / 10 x 8 plate/technical cameras were pretty much the preserve of either major Ad agencies or specialised architectural photographers.

I'm prepared to wager a fairly substantial bet that if the same pricing differential which then existed between medium format film systems and 35mm film systems were to apply to today's digital equivalents, most studios would now be shooting in digital medium format. Unfortunately the previous pricing ratio has changed out of all proportion, explaining the stratospheric gulf that currently exists between 35mm FF DSLR's and MF digital cameras, which have risen to ridiculous proportions. Unless you are a VERY well-heeled amateur/semi-pro endowed with immensely deep pockets, digital MF might as well be on another planet as far as mere mortals are concerned ! That's why I often chuckle when that hoary old chestnut about a FF Pentax 6 x 4.5cm surfaces from time to time. I'd start saving now if I were you.....

Best regards
Richard
07-02-2008, 04:36 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
A 16mp FF Pentax would be a disaster. Nikon can selll such a camera; Pentax can't. I hardly has better image quality than the K20D. High ISO perfromance is a niche market and I have no doubt that when Nikon put out a 24mp FF camera it will grossly outsell the 12mp version.
The only reason for Pentax into FF is resolution. 30mp is about right. Then you can crop as well and still have good image quality.
There's no reason a Pentax 30mp FF camera should cost more than the D700....
Nikon does not have a 16mp full frame sensor, and Sony isn't making one. If Nikon designs a 16mp FF sensor, it would probably be found in the next generation of the D3, which can take a year or two. So, a Samsung full frame sensor of 16-18mp would be ideal because file sizes would be small enough so that Pentax can probably manage 5 fps, knock on wood. A 20+mp sensor would slow the camera to a crawl (2 fps or less?) and/or require a series of signal processor chips running in parallel. That raises costs and can make it too expensive for most people. Since most of Pentax's customers are not professionals, a high pixel count camera will likely cost too much for most Pentax buyers.

Low noise at ISO setting is not a niche market. The number one digital camera in Japan is the Fuji F31, a camera known for its good low light performance, at least among compact digital cameras. See links below for ranking of Japanese cameras and for review of the F31

DSLR Photography Japan Most Popular Camera Ranking - Aug 13 to Aug 19 2007
Fujifilm FinePix F31fd Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review
07-02-2008, 04:58 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
What rubbish! Why would Canon & Nikon users want to go to medium format when they already have top end cameras that are capable of very high image quality? Moreover digital medium format is astronomically expensive and consequently this means a very small user base. I don't know where you got the idea about Pentax having a special place in high res photography. Pentax is still playing catch-up with the market leaders.
It seems that some Pentax users respond to the possibility of a Pentax full frame sensor by suggesting that those who want a full frame should wait for the 645D instead. Medium format cameras are a different market than FF 35mm, and medium format is also a lot more expensive than the Canon 5D. The 645D is no substitute for a full frame 35mm Pentax for most users.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
As I stated elsewhere, the majority of commercial studio photographers (at least the ones I know personally in the US & Australia) who shot MF film as the staple have migrated to digital for the benefit of quicker workflow and switched to Canons and Nikons DSLRs for the most part. It will be a stretch of imagination if Pentax can hope to regain ex-MF users when it has no product or working prototype to show at this present moment.
A lot of those studio photographers actually migrated to medium format backs. The cost of medium format film, processing and the time it takes to go to and from the film developer all add up, so that the cost of a medium format camera can actually be justified. Pentax can compete in the medium format DSLR market if it can apply what it learned about noise reduction in the 35mm cameras to medium format. Right now, other medium format makers, including Mamiya, cannot seem to gain control of the noise problem at high ISO settings. Right now, the market for medium format is small and the risks too high for a camera with an expensive medium format CCD sensor. If and when Samsung is able to make CMOS medium format sensors, Pentax can perhaps have an entry that may compete successfully. But, again, medium format is a different market than 35mm. Pentax cannot simply release a medium format DSLR and skip full frame, because full frame is where 35mm is headed.

Last edited by Anastigmat; 07-02-2008 at 05:03 PM.
07-02-2008, 06:41 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by blwnhr Quote
Why couldn't we just have a discussion on this camera? Maybe a comparison to the D3 and D300 too.
There should be a few of these in every Nik*n forum, why look for it here and whinge

Sure the topic started as D700, but the discussion here is more about the effects it might have on Pentax's future models, not so much about the D700 itself.
07-02-2008, 07:38 PM   #74
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The last 2 pages ahve been about medium format cameras!

I didn't look for it here, there was a thread discussing it and I was interested in a discussion on it, as a person interested in cameras and photography, not just with a specific brand (Pentax).

I'll take my whinging ways and head off then, leaving my Pentax gear in the markeplace on the way out.
07-02-2008, 08:17 PM   #75
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To be honest, Nikon has no sensors, but need to fight with Canon, that's why Nikon launch in a rush second FF camera with little difference to D3 to compete with new Canon 5D MkII. But, 12 MP and high speed fps are good for sport, serious amateurs and photo journalists, but not for serious work, Canon had 11.1 Mp camera 5 years ago.
New 1 Ds Mark 3 has 21 Mp and can even compete with MF, it's hard to say it about D3 and D700.

The D700 will sell for US $2,000 less than the D3, a considerable sum. But the difference is not enough for $2000.

Will the D700 cut D3 sales?
How will the D700 compare with Canon's soon-to-be-announced 5D successor?

I think that Canon 5D MkII will have 16 MP+ and the same or lower price.

12 MP is the yesterday of digital era.
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