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09-20-2015, 01:20 AM   #406
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
In other words, one FF machine is there to create a new future for the K-mount, because K-mount is neck deep in the past.
'Neck deep in the past' hasn't done F-mount much harm. Or M-mount, for that matter. Why is K-mount the bad guy here?

09-20-2015, 01:28 AM   #407
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattt Quote
Kinda hard to get your NDA to stick with your biggest customer /snicker
Interesting observation...
Actually i'm affraid this kind of informal communication often lacks, which is of growing detrimental concern for the labels, nowadays.
There is probably some antagonism between NDA practices and customer confidence in the long run, and also some kind of "intermediary teasing" that has to be adressed in everyone's interest.
I do wonder what photog label handles that kind of soft-communication at best.
09-20-2015, 01:31 AM   #408
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Regarding the other subject - Ricoh Imaging were definitely not lying. They told us the truth, which in spring 2015 was that the camera was due to be launched before the end of the year. Then, something happened and the due date was pushed to spring 2016. Now this is the truth. And since Ricoh knows better than force their luck, it could very well be the final truth. Changes happens - triggered by inside or outside (e.g. competitors preparing to launch their own products) factors; estimations have a lousy accuracy; and even if you're 100% reliable your suppliers might not be.
In marketing and sales, the truth does not matter. What matter is what the majority of customers think even if customers are wrong. Why? Because customers decide to spend their money or not. So, for instance, the difference between "engineering driven companies" and "marketing driven companies" is that engineering driven companies deliver what they think is right, while marketing driven companies deliver what customers are genuinely willing to buy. So, for example, Pentax decided that from their standpoint, customers did not need a FF cameras, but Canon and Nikon did what customer wanted (difference between needs and wants). Just one practical example of that, imagine you go into a camera shop, you ask for a K-3 but the sales guy propose you a Canon 7DII, what do you do? You leave the shop and buy nothing, simply because the salesman believed that the 7DII was the best offer of the moment but he ignored what's in your mind.

So, regarding the FF delay (if there is one), we can see that the majority of forum members were expecting it this year, and are now disappointed (a lot of K-5 owners did not upgrade to a K-3 and a number of them are planning to purchase a full frame instead), and some of them already wanting a FF may switch to another brand. Now for those who recently upgraded to a K-3 (I believe it is far from the majority of Pentaxians), they are generally not in hurry to buy a new camera. For for the 80%+ who have a K-5, postponing the FF camera is a loss of immediate revenue and additional loss of some Pentaxians.

One customer (you for example) is not enough to decide a strategy.
09-20-2015, 01:34 AM - 1 Like   #409
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Btw, i forgot to report the answer i had when telling them about the questions raised here by the "2/3 of mount" visible on the Pentax FF teasing shots (and the supposedly missing screwdrive and aperture lever forms)
The answer was "there is no way FF would have a different mount from existing Pentax DSLRs"

09-20-2015, 01:49 AM - 1 Like   #410
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I am sorry that i gave wrong info. But it was solid and from pentax. But they forgot to tell me about the delay and the reasons why. I can't share everything i know anyhow, but the snippets i share, i dont want to be wrong. So I'm sorry!
09-20-2015, 01:52 AM - 1 Like   #411
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I'm sure the information you gave us was correct, at that point. No need for apologies, please continue to share with us what you can.
09-20-2015, 01:55 AM   #412
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QuoteOriginally posted by grahame Quote
Nice. Not much bigger than k5 at all, similar to k3, only bigger forehead?
Are we looking at the same pictures?
Much bigger prism box, controls are much higher. Not a huge fullframe, but also not baby fullframe. And another year late.
09-20-2015, 01:59 AM   #413
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
In marketing and sales, the truth does not matter. What matter is what the majority of customers think even if customers are wrong. Why? Because customers decide to spend their money or not.
Regardless, I firmly believe they were stating the (spring 2015) truth. Because it makes no sense to do otherwise.

I'm sure "Pentax" (in whatever form) foresaw the need of expanding the K-mount to "full frame" long before 2012. But from knowing it and doing it there's a long road.

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
One customer (you for example) is not enough to decide a strategy.
I'm not deluding myself into thinking I'm a singular case

09-20-2015, 02:02 AM   #414
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QuoteOriginally posted by NZ_Ross Quote
Further to this conversation - I have just spent some time in the Investor Relations part of the Ricoh site.

They are in the middle of their 18th Mid Term Management Plan and have some articles relating to that.

More importantly Ricoh have identified the establishing of new businesses based on megatrends, and Ricoh Group strengths of Imaging/Sensing Technologies, Imaging Technology, Inkhead and Ink technology. The new business creation areas identified are Smart Vision, Visual Revolution and Additive Manufacturing - please follow the link to see the graphic on this.

Based on this short write up, and associated information regarding the Theta and how it fits into the Visual Revolution growth strategy, I would have to reiterate that even though the digital camera 'Other' group only makes up 4.9% of Ricoh's current revenue, it is clearly a core and integral part of their overall future growth strategy and mid-term management plan. As a result it will see sustained investment and development.

So, I remain happy that the future for Pentax within the Ricoh Group corporate planning looks very good indeed. Exciting times for Pentax users I would say.

Please note: I am not a shareholder of Ricoh, nor other than using their products am I associated with them in any way. These are my personal opinions based on publicly available information.

Ross
Yes, one thing always overlooked on photography forums is that traditional stills photography is only a small part of the "imaging technology" you mention. Without a heavy-duty presence in video then Ricoh haven't a hope of establishing anything to challenge outfits like Canon or Sony, and so far that vast piece is missing. Ditto with the silicon and software which drive the whole of "imaging/sensing technologies"and both of which are hugely expensive and complex. Looked at in this light a traditional FF stills camera isn't really all that important in the overall game, more of a pawn that a knight or rook, and the same is probably true of this pesky 'launch date'. Imho, it's more sensible to go out and get the camera which most fits one's needs now from whoever makes it than to wait around for what may never happen, or at least not in the way one wants or expects. Chances are that an acquisition in video or silicon/software would be ten times more significant for Ricoh's plans than is Pentax.
09-20-2015, 02:05 AM   #415
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Ten times? How did you get that?
IMHO Pentax is their only chance at the consumer camera market. And I would not claim that videography is ten times more significant than photography...
09-20-2015, 02:27 AM   #416
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
IMHO Pentax is their only chance at the consumer camera market. And I would not claim that videography is ten times more significant than photography...
Pentax is an important part of their consumer strategy for sure.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Chances are that an acquisition in video or silicon/software would be ten times more significant for Ricoh's plans
Ricoh are weaker in video, so an acquisition makes sense - for consumer, and their industrial objectives - factory automation, security and automotive.

When you look at Ricoh's Visual Revolution new business creation priority area they describe it as 'exciting visual communication systems that extend the realm of sensory perception'.

That could take us all sorts of places with regard to handheld imagining devices (including a FF camera) - broad spectrum, 3D, holograms, light spectrum selection, light field - the list could be very long.

I continue to look forward to what Ricoh Group develop and offer to consumers (and Sony, Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji, Leica, PhaseOne, Hasselblad). Strong competition is a great driver of innovation.
09-20-2015, 02:40 AM - 1 Like   #417
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcivorp Quote
So an unexplained delay with a track record of FF failure. I held off purchasing anything this year in the expectation that Ricoh wasn't lying when they announced that a FF would arrive in October. Turns out they were lying. Even worse, the company has absolutely no marketing competence whatsoever. Sad to see a company become an also-ran due to its own ineptitude. Feeble, Ricoh, just plain feeble. I'm off to buy that XF 90 I was holding off on; at least Fuji delivers. Looks like the only Pentax I'll have left once the eBaying is done is a 645N and a K-1000 (for nostalgia's sake).
Funny.

Obviously you don't need full frame if that's what you are buying. As to the whole lying thing, I wouldn't say it is lying (a) they definitely are working on a camera (b) they said the end of this year (which is not October) and (c) even the rumor wasn't that the camera would be out in October, just that there would be an announcement in October.

Way too many Pentaxians build castles in the air and then try to live in them. With friends like these, who needs enemies?
09-20-2015, 02:44 AM   #418
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I don't know if someone has already done this, but i have tried to guess the dimensions of the camera from the teaser photos in proportion to the diameter of the K-mount flange.
For what it's worth (maybe not much since we don't know if it's an actual shot of a real pre-production sample and even if it is, who knows if its appearance is final...) i'm coming up with dimensions of roughly 10.7cm x 13.0 cm, that means outer dimensions not much larger than the K-3. It seems taller to accomodate the bigger prism and viewfinder, but not broader.

In my humble opinion i expect something really compact, since compactness has been one of the most peculiar features of the last Ricoh-Pentax products, the K-S1 is the smallest Dslr on the market and still packs a best-in-class pentaprism, the K-3 is probably the APS-C camera with the best "size to performance" ratio on the market, the K-S2 also shares the same search for a small form factor...
09-20-2015, 02:53 AM - 1 Like   #419
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
They were. And still are. At least, the truth is inconvenient. Other products postponed tell they are slightly muddling around with sheets, financial years, masking of results, etc.

FF project is important, and one asks, could not they think of a safety net of some sort? Like, stating an approximate date that fits late 2015 and early 2016 and cover all contingencies? Of course they could, but something else is going on.

There is something fishy here, and I have a strange feeling many folks are gonna be disappointed this October. At least for a while, required to recover from the surprise. To me it more looks like high end FF (I expect two machines) will be a clear slate no more full legacy lens support, or something like that, and all the new tech and gizmos will be in it. It will work with old lenses to a limited degree, BUT, all new set of lenses will be made for it. Which users will need to buy if they want to justify the machine.

Other machine I expect to be some sort of K-3 with an FF. In other words, one FF machine is there to create a new future for the K-mount, because K-mount is neck deep in the past.
Missing a dead line is not the same as lying. Since, they said "end of 2016" in their press release, if it comes in April, that will be 4 months late. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, it is better to have a product without flaws and that can make a splash in the marketplace than to get a product out today that will flop in one or both of those respects.

I am not a Pentax apologist. I think they waited way too late to start working on the full frame and maybe they don't have enough engineers to get things done. Maybe they want video on it to be more than just an after thought, but they don't have the expertise to develop the right Codecs to make that work. It is unknown at this point what the sticking point is.

That said, it sounds to me like they are making the right steps and I am significantly more optimistic than yourself with regard to the future of Pentax and the k mount. Ricoh isn't stupid and every camera of theirs I have seen released has targeted the segment of the market well. They were priced to sell and had features that matched up really well against competitors in the same arena. I expect the same for the full frame camera (history tells us that the lenses will be quite expensive though).
09-20-2015, 02:59 AM   #420
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I don't think Ricoh started too late - the project, AFAIK, was started in 2012 (no idea when in 2012). In October 2012 they said the FF project was under development; the translated interview was posted right here. Given that they bought Pentax in October 2011...
It is taking some time, but perhaps there were so many issues e.g. with the sorry state Pentax was in after Hoya. It's not like the pipeline was going full steam ahead.

Often, people who try to see things as they are, especially the bad parts, are called 'apologists'. But they simply state facts, they offer no apology for them. Weird.
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