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09-21-2015, 01:44 PM   #481
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I dunno about you but it looks ridiculously small for an FF cam.
thibs I was thinking the same thing. I was just looking over the sizes of Canon and Nikon FF. The Pentax FF will be significantly smaller than the 5D 810 etc and even the Df and D6.

I matched up the K mount in that image. They fit perfectly together. The thing about the bottom plate not being flat straight across may make it easier to cup the camera in your hand.

I wouldn't mind seeing a simple flip and tilt screen like they did on the MX-1. They did a clean job of adding that without sacrificing making the MX-1 any thicker.

The pixel shift feature on the K3 II is great. They could achieve the same thing with a Foveon sensor without having to make multiple exposures. It would do away with Moire problems too.

I can wait till next spring.

09-21-2015, 02:07 PM   #482
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
The reality is that like it or not the lenses you own are legacy now. People prepare for the FF and sell DA lenses. People see that new lenses are DC and they want that instead of SDM or screwdrive. If you are thinking of buying a FA ltd you have to wonder if you should not wait 1-2 years until the new version is released. You'll either get a better lense or have the old one cheaper.

The sigma will have likely soon a new version available in Pentax and third party never keep their price as well as genuine. Plus if you want a cheap 70-200, there the tamron that is going to cost less new than what many would ask from a used sigma. For people that want the best, the sigma is no longer the best. People are waiting for the new 70-200 from Pentax.

DA*300? This was the lense to go for many people that wanted pentax because it was simply the longest focal length that was still affordable. IQ is great, you can mount a TC too. Now this is not officially an FF lense and the 150-450 look like to offer more if you need the reach...

For me what you experienced just show that the moment to invest in legacy Pentax gear if you don't mind SDM/screwdrive or getting "DA" lenses. Doesn't mean Pentax is doomed or whatever.

Also we are still in a worldwide crisis, people are globaly more cautious and will want better deal to justify to spend their hard earned money !
The problem right now for used Pentax gear is that most of the people who want older stuff own it. A lot of people are on the fence waiting to see what new glass is announced with the camera and how much it will cost. If there are new FA limiteds that come out, the price on the older ones will probably drop some (depending on what the new price is on the FA limiteds).

Prices on new lenses have dropped some since peaking about a year ago. I bought my FA 31 limited for 975 and thought I was getting a good deal for it a year and a half ago. Now, you can get a new one from B and H for 861. Clearly I bought at the wrong time. Seems like the cost of the DA * lenses is lower now than it was earlier.

In the end, you can still sell gear, you just can't get as much out of it now as you could a couple of years ago...
09-21-2015, 02:54 PM - 1 Like   #483
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QuoteOriginally posted by btnapa Quote
With all the speculations on what the specs are and what is or is not inside the camera, I think the biggest surprise may be the price. My guess, all along, has been in the $2,200-2,500 range which would make it the deal to end all deals.

If they put 42mp sensor, GPS, astrotracer and pixel shift in the camera, that might attract converts from Canikon or even Sony.
Yup, it is already attracting this Nikon user, and it hasn't even been announced yet!

Considering that the Pentax K-3 II costs (now) under $1K while the Canon 7D mk2 costs $1500, or more importantly considering that the Pentax 645Z costs about $8K while a Phase One IQ180 costs about $30K, ...I'm really betting the full-frame Pentax will cost within $500 of $2K. Maybe just under $2K, after the initial pre-order rush dies down, and maybe as much as $2500 at first MSRP, but I strongly feel that if they're offering a medium format digital camera for $8K, they're not going to try and pull some $3K+ stunt on full-frame shooters.

(BTW the Canon 5Ds is already selling for under $3K I hear, and a grey market Nikon D810 can be had for just $2200, so yeah the market is getting pretty saturated and competitive, even for the camera bodies that are chasing medium format in a professional, near-flagship form factor...)

Keep in mind that in the Canon / Nikon world, it is very easy to spend $10K on bodies and lenses if you're a hard-working pro, or just a upper-middle-class hobbyist. If Pentax is going to put a real dent in the full-frame market, they have to do it for considerably less than that. Considering they're hoping to charge about the same for a 70-200 2.8 as Canon and Nikon are, the enticement is going to have to come from the bodies.

Just my opinion as an un-educated but highly fascinated industry observer.
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09-21-2015, 04:21 PM   #484
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matthew Saville Quote
Yup, it is already attracting this Nikon user, and it hasn't even been announced yet!

Considering that the Pentax K-3 II costs (now) under $1K while the Canon 7D mk2 costs $1500, or more importantly considering that the Pentax 645Z costs about $8K while a Phase One IQ180 costs about $30K, ...I'm really betting the full-frame Pentax will cost within $500 of $2K. Maybe just under $2K, after the initial pre-order rush dies down, and maybe as much as $2500 at first MSRP, but I strongly feel that if they're offering a medium format digital camera for $8K, they're not going to try and pull some $3K+ stunt on full-frame shooters.

(BTW the Canon 5Ds is already selling for under $3K I hear, and a grey market Nikon D810 can be had for just $2200, so yeah the market is getting pretty saturated and competitive, even for the camera bodies that are chasing medium format in a professional, near-flagship form factor...)

Keep in mind that in the Canon / Nikon world, it is very easy to spend $10K on bodies and lenses if you're a hard-working pro, or just a upper-middle-class hobbyist. If Pentax is going to put a real dent in the full-frame market, they have to do it for considerably less than that. Considering they're hoping to charge about the same for a 70-200 2.8 as Canon and Nikon are, the enticement is going to have to come from the bodies.

Just my opinion as an un-educated but highly fascinated industry observer.
=Matt=
I wonder if sticker price is really going to be an issue with this camera. Those who can afford FF anyway will buy it regardless if the camera and a set of key lenses are good enough to stand proud of peers with a very high quality bar. Apart from a fairly tiny number of Pentax diehards, why would anyone else buy it unless the camera and a set of key lenses are good enough to pull them across from established systems with deep catalogues? Pentax cannot beat the Canonikon grey market and discounters on price and there's no point I can see in them trying to. If Ricoh started prodding Canonikon annoyingly, all Canonikon would have to do is release a sudden flood of grey market sorry "factory refurbished" units from their overstock piles at deep discounts and blow out Pentax there and then. But without those new users, sales are likely to be modest to say the least. FF is still a minority interest in the camera world. There's no easy answer, I think. This will be a very tricky sell unless they do something tonto like offer it for 700 bucks and I don't think anyone is expecting that. Chances are it may be the opposite - Ricoh will try to stick with the quality end of the market. It kind of makes sense - that's where the money is. Think dentists, lawyers, banksters.

09-21-2015, 04:28 PM   #485
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Think dentists, lawyers, banksters.
Russian Oligarchs, Arabs, Sultans etc. However, I thought they all brought Leica.....
09-21-2015, 04:31 PM   #486
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Chances are it may be the opposite - Ricoh will try to stick with the quality end of the market. It kind of makes sense - that's where the money is. Think dentists, lawyers, banksters.
That's likely, Mecrox.

They might put out a body with Canon/Nikon specs, but trying to undercut them on price means entering a higher volume/lower margin war Pentax can only lose money on.

The pricing of the 150-450 and 70-200 lenses show their strategy is serious hardware at a serious price, much to the chagrin of you and I who might hope to buy one. ☺

There is something to be said for the second low cost variant people have speculated on, though.

Aren't the 6D and the NX500 in a way crippled versions of the 5D and NX-1?
09-21-2015, 04:31 PM   #487
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QuoteOriginally posted by NZ_Ross Quote
Russian Oligarchs, Arabs, Sultans etc. However, I thought they all brought Leica.....
Lol, the humble bankster may well be the better market. There's usually more chance of them living long enough to be sold a few extra lenses or even a second body, long after the others have expired in palace coups, from overindulgence or after an unfortunate visit from Vlad the Poisoner.
09-21-2015, 05:15 PM   #488
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
I wouldn't mind seeing a simple flip and tilt screen like they did on the MX-1.
The FF dummy shown at CP+ 2015 (see below) certainly had what looked like a rear flippy screen. I hope they have retained that in the FF design. It's a great feature.




Last edited by rawr; 09-21-2015 at 05:20 PM.
09-21-2015, 07:04 PM   #489
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It seems to me Ricoh try to make the same hit as the 645 (D or Z) so the price must be very studied actually.
The example of Kenspo who became a Pentax/Ricoh ambassador tells me, Ricoh tries to aim Pro market so the price could be higher than lots of us expects .
For the delay I guess some recent rumors from the DSLR industry could explain it, or the pixel war, may be the 51Mpix Canon sensor forced Ricoh to choose the 42Mpix Sony sensor instead the 36Mpix one they plan to use in the first place ? Who knows yet ?

( based on CP+ 2015 Interview: Ricoh’s investment in Pentax, full-frame strategy, lens plans and more )
09-21-2015, 07:04 PM   #490
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rawr that does look like there is something going on there. That's all I want is that simple tilt. Hopefully without adding to the depth to much. I thought Pentax did a nice job with the MX-1 tilt screen. I have seen it in person. So Pentax is capable.

I would also love to see Pentax make a compliment camera to the Ricoh GR. A weather sealed APS-C with a 28mm lenses giving the eq. 35mm view of ~42mm. The marriage of the 28mm to APS-C is in the philosophy Pentax had with the 43 LTD for film.

Here's to dreaming. :^)
09-22-2015, 12:13 AM - 1 Like   #491
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Just how good is the Sony 42MP BSI Sensor

Within the discussions on this thread there has been a reasonable amount of speculation that the Pentax FF has been delayed to incorporate the new Sony 42MP BSI Sensor that is currently in the A7RII.

If that turns out to actually be true, it is a wait that I am very happy about. This video has just been released by Michael Tapes on Luminous Landscape.

The video is well worth watching, very detailed, and contains some stunning implications - not the least of which is the new Sony sensor is game changing and an extremely good sensor. The dynamic range comparison is of the Nixon D810, Canon 5DsR, Canon 1Dx and Sony A7RII

Given what Pentax engineers have been able to achieve over the years with their implementation of Sony sensors, and if they are implementing the Sony 42MP BSI sensor on the Pentax FF, then i think we are going to be in for a treat next year. I am happy to wait for that .

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09-22-2015, 12:29 AM   #492
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The Sony 42MP sensor does indeed seem very good. But, as the DxOMark data for the A7RII makes clear, the dynamic range and other performance of it is hardly 'game changing'.

Still, it would certainly be nice to see that sensor, or something closely related, in a Pentax.
09-22-2015, 12:51 AM   #493
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
The Sony 42MP sensor does indeed seem very good. But, as the DxOMark data for the A7RII makes clear, the dynamic range and other performance of it is hardly 'game changing'.

Still, it would certainly be nice to see that sensor, or something closely related, in a Pentax.
It's not necessary to be a game changer, but more like a milestone, a 'non plus ultra' in the sense of being a good performer for a longer time on which you can count after years of usage. Like the sensor in the K-5 and Ricoh GR still is.
09-22-2015, 02:34 AM - 1 Like   #494
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The variable that postpones launch is not the sensor. Everyone talks about boring sensors, but they are not the issue.
If Pentax implements pixel shift, 36MP is already an overkill, and an excuse that they wait for 42 MP is nonsense.
But Ricoh is buying time and does crazy stunts to develop more lenses. More lenses. And more lenses And nothing but lenses.
If it were the sensor, the FF would have been launched in December. But for the sake on lenses, sometime in .. spring.
09-22-2015, 02:55 AM   #495
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
The variable that postpones launch is not the sensor. Everyone talks about boring sensors, but they are not the issue.
If Pentax implements pixel shift, 36MP is already an overkill, and an excuse that they wait for 42 MP is nonsense.
But Ricoh is buying time and does crazy stunts to develop more lenses. More lenses. And more lenses And nothing but lenses.
If it were the sensor, the FF would have been launched in December. But for the sake on lenses, sometime in .. spring.
Pixel shift is a gimmick at this point. Yes, it does allow for better product photography, but it is not something that easily allows for real world shots. It has been demonstrated multiple times that using it in landscape shots where there is light wind will produce image with lots of artifacts, albeit with extra detail in the parts of the image that don't move. Waterfall photos with it don't look good. It is useless for hand held photos.

As to the reason for the delay, it is hard to say, isn't it? Either there was hardware issue that wasn't solvable in the time they had, a software problem, some feature that they wanted to be there that wasn't there, the lenses weren't done, or maybe they want the video on this camera to be decent and it isn't yet. Whatever the case, there has been a delay.

People aren't blaming the delay on the 42 megapixel sensor, they are just saying that if Pentax does use the newest sensor out there, then they would be more willing to wait on said full frame camera, whereas, they would be less willing to do so if it were coming out with the 24 megapixel sensor in the D610.
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