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09-25-2015, 10:13 AM   #616
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
I'm getting back to this statement reported by kenspo -emphasis added is mine. Something just came to my mind; since:

(i) the sales of K-3 II are well below the objectives assigned to the camera, at least in France and in Europe (information gathered from a few Pentax retailers and then confirmed by people from Ricoh Imaging France, the latter being also the European headquarter of Ricoh Imaging);

(ii) the most violent criticism made against K-3 II, in the press and on the forums, is the lack of built-in flash;

(iii) the mock-up of the future 24x36 camera presented at CP+ witnessed the absence of built-in flash at that stage of the project;

(iv) Ricoh Imaging are keen on responding to criticisms from Pentax customers, see for instance the "Ricoh" label put on the backside of K-3 and then removed from more recent cameras;

what if the "enriched functions and specifications" to be brought to the 24x36 camera "to satisfy customers" had to do with the re-introduction of a built-in flash and the subsequent re-arrangement of the wi-fi / astrotracer module?

Just food for thought.
I can't manage to figure why the love with built in flash since there is a hot shoe and very compact flash on the market .
Shouldn't we need a buit in tripod or a built in mug heater ?

09-25-2015, 10:36 AM   #617
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QuoteOriginally posted by AOCO Quote
I can't manage to figure why the love with built in flash since there is a hot shoe and very compact flash on the market .
Shouldn't we need a buit in tripod or a built in mug heater ?
Easy to uderstand why in my opinion. Would it be preferable to get something for free,or pay for something and have to carry another gadget around?
The compact flash you refer to does not tilt or swivel, nor is it a lot more powerful than a built in flash.

For me, it is no deal breaker (obviously, since I bought a K-3II)..but I can easily understand why a built in flash would be preferable than not having one at all.
09-25-2015, 11:58 AM   #618
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Actually, the AF201FG tilts from 10-135 and is P-TTL compatible. It is quite a decent little flash. The principal strike against this tiny flash is the lack of ability to trigger remote flashes in slave mode (it isn't an FGZ).
09-25-2015, 04:33 PM   #619
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Is it really possible to shift a design from a camera without a built in flash to one with a built in flash in just a couple of months and bring it to production? I'm not an engineer but designing the layout of the hardware and testing them to make sure that there will be no bugs is kinda difficult. I mean, when was the k-3II introduced? Just a couple of months ago and if they designed this for over a year and still have some bugs... I think there are other reasons beside the built in flash.

09-25-2015, 08:21 PM   #620
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Actually, the AF201FG tilts from 10-135 and is P-TTL compatible. It is quite a decent little flash. The principal strike against this tiny flash is the lack of ability to trigger remote flashes in slave mode (it isn't an FGZ).
Do you know if the AF201FG have the bounce card?? I havent see any pic with a bounce card but dont know if is because they just dont show it or if is because it lacks of it.
09-25-2015, 08:37 PM   #621
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Do you know if the AF201FG have the bounce card?? I havent see any pic with a bounce card but dont know if is because they just dont show it or if is because it lacks of it.
I do not believe it has an installed bounce card. This little flash is really for the Q and for light use with a K-S1 or K-S2. It isn't meant to be a substitute for the 540 or 360 FGZII professional flashes.
09-25-2015, 09:33 PM   #622
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QuoteOriginally posted by AOCO Quote
I can't manage to figure why the love with built in flash since there is a hot shoe and very compact flash on the market .
Shouldn't we need a buit in tripod or a built in mug heater ?
The "violent" reaction here when the K-3ii was announced was a real education for me. I have never ever been a fan of point-source on-board flashes ... I have always considered them to be more appropriate for a point-and-shoot camera, but apparently many users depend on them either for fill or to trigger the bigger flashes. I have several 1980-era flashes I still carry around with me because I'm happier with auto-controlled flashes than with ttl-controlled flashes. Only when I bought a 200 so I could compare using it to using one of my older flashes ( less than 2" x 2.5" x 6" ... and it tilts 90 degrees ) did I realize how large even "small" modern flashes are. I believe Pentax made a mistake in not having a 201 FGZ available when they released the K-3ii.
09-25-2015, 09:47 PM   #623
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Actually, the AF201FG tilts from 10-135 and is P-TTL compatible. It is quite a decent little flash. The principal strike against this tiny flash is the lack of ability to trigger remote flashes in slave mode (it isn't an FGZ).
I stand corrected regarding tilt.
However, it limits your bouncing to when the camera is in landscape orientation. Granted, tilting is still a step up from the popup flash.

09-25-2015, 09:57 PM   #624
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rorschach Quote
I find all this anguish very amusing...it is just a camera after all, a gadget. So stop cutting your wrists over the delay of a gadget for your hobby.
So true.
09-25-2015, 10:13 PM   #625
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I stand corrected regarding tilt.
However, it limits your bouncing to when the camera is in landscape orientation. Granted, tilting is still a step up from the popup flash.
I don't disagree. It should have been a 201FGZ, but I think it's really intended for the Q and KS-1 / KS-2. 2 AA batteries and a pretty small GN. Actually OK for the family event crowd, and I do a lot of that, especially with Q-7. 1/4 power manual fill is better than nothing, and the pop-up can be finessed if you need to finesse fill more.

They left the full-featured stuff for the big flashes.
09-26-2015, 01:21 AM - 1 Like   #626
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
I'm getting back to this statement reported by kenspo -emphasis added is mine. Something just came to my mind; since:

(i) the sales of K-3 II are well below the objectives assigned to the camera, at least in France and in Europe (information gathered from a few Pentax retailers and then confirmed by people from Ricoh Imaging France, the latter being also the European headquarter of Ricoh Imaging);

(ii) the most violent criticism made against K-3 II, in the press and on the forums, is the lack of built-in flash;

(iii) the mock-up of the future 24x36 camera presented at CP+ witnessed the absence of built-in flash at that stage of the project;

(iv) Ricoh Imaging are keen on responding to criticisms from Pentax customers, see for instance the "Ricoh" label put on the backside of K-3 and then removed from more recent cameras;

what if the "enriched functions and specifications" to be brought to the 24x36 camera "to satisfy customers" had to do with the re-introduction of a built-in flash and the subsequent re-arrangement of the wi-fi / astrotracer module?

Just food for thought.
While I was for an in board flash (and honestly to increase it guide number and give it the ability to tilt) I don't think low K3-II sales are really due to that.

The problem of the K3-II for me is the problem of the whole camera industry: People that want a DSLR already brought it by now and people that were thinking their current model was not good enough replaced with a very capable one. The only people that remains on the market are not that many and a part of them might decide to go for what they need so maybe a more basic model like a K50 or a K3... The one that really need a K3-II are not the majority.

If you want sales, you need to construct an interresting proposition. This is can be much better performance like much better high iso performance or the ability of the sensor to never burn hightlight and do 1 shoot HDR. This may be a much smaller camera (and lenses !) that still make great photos but that's not marginal improvement camera like K3-II provide that will get huge sales figures.

That's why the FF is a great idea: the marketing effort of the whole Camera industry convinced many people that having an FF camera is worth it. It is also usually accepted that you need to pay a lot for it. If the Pentax FF is seen as great by Pentaxist, many will buy one and use it as a justification to also buy a few modern FF lenses. That can bring money to Pentax/Ricoh for 2-3 years. This also give an additionnal upgrade path to suck more money from people that always need to have the best and will buy their first camera in the coming years.

Still, this trick will only serve for 2-3 years. They'll need something else that is better than pixel shift to get sales after that.
09-26-2015, 03:03 AM - 1 Like   #627
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
While I was for an in board flash (and honestly to increase it guide number and give it the ability to tilt) I don't think low K3-II sales are really due to that. The problem of the K3-II for me is the problem of the whole camera industry: People that want a DSLR already brought it by now and people that were thinking their current model was not good enough replaced with a very capable one. The only people that remains on the market are not that many and a part of them might decide to go for what they need so maybe a more basic model like a K50 or a K3... The one that really need a K3-II are not the majority. If you want sales, you need to construct an interresting proposition. This is can be much better performance like much better high iso performance or the ability of the sensor to never burn hightlight and do 1 shoot HDR. This may be a much smaller camera (and lenses !) that still make great photos but that's not marginal improvement camera like K3-II provide that will get huge sales figures. That's why the FF is a great idea: the marketing effort of the whole Camera industry convinced many people that having an FF camera is worth it. It is also usually accepted that you need to pay a lot for it. If the Pentax FF is seen as great by Pentaxist, many will buy one and use it as a justification to also buy a few modern FF lenses. That can bring money to Pentax/Ricoh for 2-3 years. This also give an additionnal upgrade path to suck more money from people that always need to have the best and will buy their first camera in the coming years. Still, this trick will only serve for 2-3 years. They'll need something else that is better than pixel shift to get sales after that.
Yes, my opinion is also the same. Not enough added value to justify the purchase of a K-3 II for owners of K-5, K-5II, K5IIs and K-3. Already, in terms of image quality, there's not much difference between a K-5IIs and K-3, just a sligthly different tradeoff, as for the AF, for static subject, the AF of my K200D is good enough.
09-26-2015, 03:47 AM   #628
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Rather than the pop-up flash, i would regret that Pentax didn't upgrade sensor like Nikon did with D7200.
09-26-2015, 04:00 AM   #629
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Rather than the pop-up flash, i would regret that Pentax didn't upgrade sensor like Nikon did with D7200.
Basically, Nikon released 3 camera in the same segment (D7000, D7100, D7200) when Pentax release 4 (K5, K5-II, K3, K3-II), 5 with K5-IIs.

If you release more often, you can't expect as many changes. To me the 2 real camera release in that time frame for Pentax are K5 and K3. The other are just slight variations. And the third real model might release end of next year.
09-26-2015, 10:17 AM   #630
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
what if the "enriched functions and specifications" to be brought to the 24x36 camera "to satisfy customers" had to do with the re-introduction of a built-in flash and the subsequent re-arrangement of the wi-fi / astrotracer module?
AFAIC, it would be a mistake to re-introduce the pop-up flash.

It has a lot of limitations, including not being able to serve as an HSS master.

I don't recall a lot of critism regarding the removal of the pop-up flash on the K-3 II from reviewers but even if there were respective voices, they may comment differently in case of an FF model. The latter implies a high emphasis on IQ and a willingness to invest more financially in order to get results. A pop-flash would definitely not address this clientele.

This view is supported by the absence of pop-up flashes on many high-end FF models from other manufacturers.
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