Pentax FF spring 2016

Mistral75 · 10-03-2015, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

(...)
Plus ça change…

...plus c'est pareil !

**NZ_Ross** · 10-03-2015, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Mistral75

plus c'est pareil !

C'est la vie

For the Americans - use Google translate if you have to....

**RobA_Oz** · 10-03-2015, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by NZ_Ross

C'est la vie

.

La vie? Ça plane pour moi…

Kharan · 10-03-2015, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Pentax is profitable and growing. Nikon is not profitable. Sony is not profitable. Canon is marginally profitable. Ricoh intentionally has avoided the capital investment and inventory overhang drag caused by the others' having built out to supply the conversion to digital (2004 - 2014). As dSLR units gradually decline to 2004 levels CaNiSony will repeatedly write down excess P&E, try to raise capital by making dilutive equity offerings and systematically underperform expectations.

Pentax will be much more likely to survive in its current form than Sony or Nikon.

I'm coming late to this discussion, but that's WRONG. Sony finally turned the tide this year, and has been making good progress. While their shipments declined a little, their operating profit rose over 10%, which is extraordinary considering the market. Also, Nikon posted a profit for this quarter, and still gained some market share. However, it's all been thanks to cost cutting, and that can only go so far. Olympus and Samsung are actually the two companies hurting the most right now.

Pentax? Damned if we know.

**NZ_Ross** · 10-03-2015, 02:15 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

La vie? Ça plane pour moi…

Reminds me of a very silly song....

You Tube

**RobA_Oz** · 10-03-2015, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by NZ_Ross

Reminds me of a very silly song....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDfmn_TMkI

Hard to get out of your head, once you've heard it, but it was a punk parody.

Speaking of which, back to the thread…

Mistral75 · 10-03-2015, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

Hard to get out of your head, once you've heard it, but it was a punk parody.

Speaking of which, back to the thread…

The FF Pentax will be the parody of a punk camera?

**RobA_Oz** · 10-03-2015, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Mistral75

The FF Pentax will be the parody of a punk camera?

Interesting concept, but I fear you've been reading Jacques Derrida, or Monty Python, perhaps.

**NZ_Ross** · 10-03-2015, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Mistral75

The FF Pentax will be the parody of a punk camera?

That could possibly be the most accurate prediction on the FF Pentax that we have seen on this thread

---------- Post added 04-10-15 at 10:46 AM ----------

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

Interesting concept, but I fear you've been reading Jacques Derrida, or Monty Python, perhaps.

I am sure that there will be some claiming the FF Pentax is a 'Norwegian Blue'

rullrich · 10-03-2015, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by NZ_Ross

I think that is one of the things I find interesting about the commentary on this thread and PF generally. There are professional photographers here and there are amateurs...

It will be interesting to see the comments of the professionals here once the Pentax FF arrives, and whether they believe it is a system they can invest in.

+1
Great post that put's the discussion in perspective!

**Rondec** · 10-04-2015, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by Kharan

I'm coming late to this discussion, but that's WRONG. Sony finally turned the tide this year, and has been making good progress. While their shipments declined a little, their operating profit rose over 10%, which is extraordinary considering the market. Also, Nikon posted a profit for this quarter, and still gained some market share. However, it's all been thanks to cost cutting, and that can only go so far. Olympus and Samsung are actually the two companies hurting the most right now.

Pentax? Damned if we know.

The issue is if the camera market is maturing and companies need to cut production in order to maintain profits, how easily can they do that?

Mirrorless has benefited significantly from the fact that early mirrorless cameras were pretty poor in certain respects -- not great EVFs, poor tracking -- and so people felt pushed to upgrade on a more routine basis than do SLR users at this point. On the other hand, mirrorless cameras are probably reaching the point that SLRs did three or four years ago, where there are no revolutionary improvements, just incremental adjustments. If you own an A7r II, what would Sony have to stuff in to the III to make you want to buy it? And while Sony is making a profit on their top end cameras right now, their model also seems to depend on really frequent updates and releases. If that market stagnates, even a little, they could end up in some trouble.

**Mikesul** · 10-04-2015, 07:59 AM

Interesting, thoughtful post, Rondec. About the only thing I wish the A7RII had was ruggedness and sealing comparable to the K-3. It may be close to that now but I am uncomfortable , perhaps unfairly, about it in extreme conditions. Other than that I doubt there will be any upgrade in the near future which would make a huge improvement in the pictures it produces. Sony may intend to rely for continued and increasing revenue on lens sales since that is an area which it seems to be developing rather quickly with, according to some accounts, 6 new lenses due in the coming year.

RonHendriks1966 · 10-04-2015, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

The issue is if the camera market is maturing and companies need to cut production in order to maintain profits, how easily can they do that?

Mirrorless has benefited significantly from the fact that early mirrorless cameras were pretty poor in certain respects -- not great EVFs, poor tracking -- and so people felt pushed to upgrade on a more routine basis than do SLR users at this point. On the other hand, mirrorless cameras are probably reaching the point that SLRs did three or four years ago, where there are no revolutionary improvements, just incremental adjustments. If you own an A7r II, what would Sony have to stuff in to the III to make you want to buy it? And while Sony is making a profit on their top end cameras right now, their model also seems to depend on really frequent updates and releases. If that market stagnates, even a little, they could end up in some trouble.

Looking at the cipa figures of augustus there is a good look at how 2015 is running.

P&S will be down by 6 miljon camera's, but that is not of any concern for Ricoh.
Japan is down 10 % in dslr and that does hurt Ricoh, being the homeland.
milc is maybe not the biggest issue, but is growing. No idea if this means something for Q.
Europe is still in financial trouble and has a shrinking dslr market and spends less on each unit they buy. This is the second market for Ricoh.

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201508_e.pdf

falconeye · 10-04-2015, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201508_e.pdf

Always interesting to look at.

I found it most interesting that the "migration" of DSLR to mirrorless seems pretty strong in Europe now while that party seems to be over already in Japan, with mirrorless loosing stronger than DSLR.

I assume that in the end, we see a battle of Canon vs. Nikon vs. Sony more than DSLR vs. mirrorless. With Ricoh, Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji, Samsung and Leica being spectators rather than participants in that battle.

reh321 · 10-04-2015, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

The issue is if the camera market is maturing and companies need to cut production in order to maintain profits, how easily can they do that?

I think there is a second issue ... implicit in your second paragraph

Originally posted by Rondec

Mirrorless has benefited significantly from the fact that early mirrorless cameras were pretty poor in certain respects -- not great EVFs, poor tracking -- and so people felt pushed to upgrade on a more routine basis than do SLR users at this point. On the other hand, mirrorless cameras are probably reaching the point that SLRs did three or four years ago, where there are no revolutionary improvements, just incremental adjustments. If you own an A7r II, what would Sony have to stuff in to the III to make you want to buy it? And while Sony is making a profit on their top end cameras right now, their model also seems to depend on really frequent updates and releases. If that market stagnates, even a little, they could end up in some trouble.

Have we reached a point of equilibrium within DSLR and MILC markets ... in other words, have people stopped moving between the two markets? Personally, I'm not sure. There are areas, such as photography at ceremonies, perhaps even including weddings, where a (quiet) MILC has an advantage of the "clacking" of a DSLR, and I'm not sure whether newcomers (those not already committed to DSLR by a significant investment in lenses) might be drawn more to MILC than to DSLR. If that does happen, it might be a slow trend, but it could still affect market share and profitability over time. I hope Pentax retains, at least, their Q foot in the MILC market, so they will have the basic technology needed to move bigger products over if they get too squeezed in a declining DSLR market.

10-04-2015, 09:15 AM	#778
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Rondec The issue is if the camera market is maturing and companies need to cut production in order to maintain profits, how easily can they do that? Mirrorless has benefited significantly from the fact that early mirrorless cameras were pretty poor in certain respects -- not great EVFs, poor tracking -- and so people felt pushed to upgrade on a more routine basis than do SLR users at this point. On the other hand, mirrorless cameras are probably reaching the point that SLRs did three or four years ago, where there are no revolutionary improvements, just incremental adjustments. If you own an A7r II, what would Sony have to stuff in to the III to make you want to buy it? And while Sony is making a profit on their top end cameras right now, their model also seems to depend on really frequent updates and releases. If that market stagnates, even a little, they could end up in some trouble. Looking at the cipa figures of augustus there is a good look at how 2015 is running. P&S will be down by 6 miljon camera's, but that is not of any concern for Ricoh. Japan is down 10 % in dslr and that does hurt Ricoh, being the homeland. milc is maybe not the biggest issue, but is growing. No idea if this means something for Q. Europe is still in financial trouble and has a shrinking dslr market and spends less on each unit they buy. This is the second market for Ricoh. http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201508_e.pdf

10-04-2015, 10:08 AM	#779
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201508_e.pdf Always interesting to look at. I found it most interesting that the "migration" of DSLR to mirrorless seems pretty strong in Europe now while that party seems to be over already in Japan, with mirrorless loosing stronger than DSLR. I assume that in the end, we see a battle of Canon vs. Nikon vs. Sony more than DSLR vs. mirrorless. With Ricoh, Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji, Samsung and Leica being spectators rather than participants in that battle. Last edited by falconeye; 10-04-2015 at 03:01 PM.

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10-03-2015, 01:47 PM	#766
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 6,962	Originally posted by RobA_Oz (...) Plus ça change… ...plus c'est pareil !

10-03-2015, 02:00 PM	#767
NZ_Ross Kiwi Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Timaru Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,120	Originally posted by Mistral75 plus c'est pareil ! C'est la vie For the Americans - use Google translate if you have to....

10-03-2015, 02:06 PM	#768
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 7,870	Originally posted by NZ_Ross C'est la vie . La vie? Ça plane pour moi…

10-03-2015, 02:10 PM	#769
Kharan Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 74	Originally posted by monochrome Pentax is profitable and growing. Nikon is not profitable. Sony is not profitable. Canon is marginally profitable. Ricoh intentionally has avoided the capital investment and inventory overhang drag caused by the others' having built out to supply the conversion to digital (2004 - 2014). As dSLR units gradually decline to 2004 levels CaNiSony will repeatedly write down excess P&E, try to raise capital by making dilutive equity offerings and systematically underperform expectations. Pentax will be much more likely to survive in its current form than Sony or Nikon. I'm coming late to this discussion, but that's WRONG. Sony finally turned the tide this year, and has been making good progress. While their shipments declined a little, their operating profit rose over 10%, which is extraordinary considering the market. Also, Nikon posted a profit for this quarter, and still gained some market share. However, it's all been thanks to cost cutting, and that can only go so far. Olympus and Samsung are actually the two companies hurting the most right now. Pentax? Damned if we know.

10-03-2015, 02:34 PM	#771
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 7,870	Originally posted by NZ_Ross Reminds me of a very silly song.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDfmn_TMkI Hard to get out of your head, once you've heard it, but it was a punk parody. Speaking of which, back to the thread…

10-03-2015, 02:41 PM	#772
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 6,962	Originally posted by RobA_Oz Hard to get out of your head, once you've heard it, but it was a punk parody. Speaking of which, back to the thread… The FF Pentax will be the parody of a punk camera?

10-03-2015, 02:45 PM	#773
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 7,870	Originally posted by Mistral75 The FF Pentax will be the parody of a punk camera? Interesting concept, but I fear you've been reading Jacques Derrida, or Monty Python, perhaps.

10-03-2015, 02:45 PM	#774
NZ_Ross Kiwi Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Timaru Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,120	Originally posted by Mistral75 The FF Pentax will be the parody of a punk camera? That could possibly be the most accurate prediction on the FF Pentax that we have seen on this thread ---------- Post added 04-10-15 at 10:46 AM ---------- Originally posted by RobA_Oz Interesting concept, but I fear you've been reading Jacques Derrida, or Monty Python, perhaps. I am sure that there will be some claiming the FF Pentax is a 'Norwegian Blue'

10-03-2015, 10:38 PM	#775
rullrich Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Berlin Posts: 120	Originally posted by NZ_Ross I think that is one of the things I find interesting about the commentary on this thread and PF generally. There are professional photographers here and there are amateurs... It will be interesting to see the comments of the professionals here once the Pentax FF arrives, and whether they believe it is a system they can invest in. +1 Great post that put's the discussion in perspective!

10-04-2015, 03:29 AM	#776
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 26,083	Originally posted by Kharan I'm coming late to this discussion, but that's WRONG. Sony finally turned the tide this year, and has been making good progress. While their shipments declined a little, their operating profit rose over 10%, which is extraordinary considering the market. Also, Nikon posted a profit for this quarter, and still gained some market share. However, it's all been thanks to cost cutting, and that can only go so far. Olympus and Samsung are actually the two companies hurting the most right now. Pentax? Damned if we know. The issue is if the camera market is maturing and companies need to cut production in order to maintain profits, how easily can they do that? Mirrorless has benefited significantly from the fact that early mirrorless cameras were pretty poor in certain respects -- not great EVFs, poor tracking -- and so people felt pushed to upgrade on a more routine basis than do SLR users at this point. On the other hand, mirrorless cameras are probably reaching the point that SLRs did three or four years ago, where there are no revolutionary improvements, just incremental adjustments. If you own an A7r II, what would Sony have to stuff in to the III to make you want to buy it? And while Sony is making a profit on their top end cameras right now, their model also seems to depend on really frequent updates and releases. If that market stagnates, even a little, they could end up in some trouble.

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10-04-2015, 07:59 AM	#777
Mikesul Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 7,129	Interesting, thoughtful post, Rondec. About the only thing I wish the A7RII had was ruggedness and sealing comparable to the K-3. It may be close to that now but I am uncomfortable , perhaps unfairly, about it in extreme conditions. Other than that I doubt there will be any upgrade in the near future which would make a huge improvement in the pictures it produces. Sony may intend to rely for continued and increasing revenue on lens sales since that is an area which it seems to be developing rather quickly with, according to some accounts, 6 new lenses due in the coming year.

10-04-2015, 10:17 AM	#780
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 22,146	Originally posted by Rondec The issue is if the camera market is maturing and companies need to cut production in order to maintain profits, how easily can they do that? I think there is a second issue ... implicit in your second paragraph Originally posted by Rondec Mirrorless has benefited significantly from the fact that early mirrorless cameras were pretty poor in certain respects -- not great EVFs, poor tracking -- and so people felt pushed to upgrade on a more routine basis than do SLR users at this point. On the other hand, mirrorless cameras are probably reaching the point that SLRs did three or four years ago, where there are no revolutionary improvements, just incremental adjustments. If you own an A7r II, what would Sony have to stuff in to the III to make you want to buy it? And while Sony is making a profit on their top end cameras right now, their model also seems to depend on really frequent updates and releases. If that market stagnates, even a little, they could end up in some trouble. Have we reached a point of equilibrium within DSLR and MILC markets ... in other words, have people stopped moving between the two markets? Personally, I'm not sure. There are areas, such as photography at ceremonies, perhaps even including weddings, where a (quiet) MILC has an advantage of the "clacking" of a DSLR, and I'm not sure whether newcomers (those not already committed to DSLR by a significant investment in lenses) might be drawn more to MILC than to DSLR. If that does happen, it might be a slow trend, but it could still affect market share and profitability over time. I hope Pentax retains, at least, their Q foot in the MILC market, so they will have the basic technology needed to move bigger products over if they get too squeezed in a declining DSLR market.