Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-07-2015, 02:32 PM - 1 Like   #886
Moderator
Tom S.'s Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: S.E. Michigan
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,239
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Stupid to say but isn't the actual units made in philipines, not Japan? Also are you sure they can find the required labor? Also you speak general of Japan assembly lines. You mean for cameras? Consumer good in general? Vehicules? Then do you know Pentax/Ricoh and their own efficiancy for that? Are they bellow average? faster? slower?

Do you know exactly what the problem is? What the fix involve?
Japanese based manufacturing processes are followed in Japanese plants no matter where they are located, even in the US. After WWII, Japan tried to restructure it's industry which was devastated by the war. Initially all they succeeded in doing was getting a reputation for producing junk. Japanese industry - read that as: ALL JAPANESE INDUSTRY, and their government turned to their conquerors, the US for help. A very large portion of that help came in the form of a man named Dr. Deming. He taught the Japanese industrialists that quality doesn't cost, it pays. He taught them several other lessons that I'm not going to elaborate on, which the Japanese took to heart. Soon, manufacturing jobs started disappearing from the US and Europe, replaced by products made in Japan. It started out small, with electronic goods. Pretty soon, all transistor radios were made in Japan. Then TV's and stereos started coming from there. And motorcycles. And watches. And cameras. And eventually cars. In other countries, such as South Korea manufacturers took lessons from the Japanese model of manufacturing and began to compete head to head with the Japanese. As the global market and competition grew, Japanese businessmen, looking for cheaper labor and taxes in order to maintain profits, moved their factories to other countries, but they took their successful manufacturing processes with them. In some cases, they built factories in other countries to avoid taxes and shipping costs - hence Japanese car plants in the US.

I suspect you meant to ask if I was sure Ricoh couldn't find the required labor, and I'll answer that question: Yes, I'm sure. Putting cameras together isn't necessarily rocket science, but it does require some skill and training. A company would be either desperate or dumb to spend the resources training new workers, have them work for a couple months and then get rid of them. Depending on the country, there may also be additional costs such as unemployment insurance, etc. As a side note, new workers are also more prone to make errors. Would it make any sense to hire workers who were naturally prone to make mistakes, to correct mistakes that had already been made?

Do I know what Pentax efficiency is? Nope, nor do I care. But I can tell you that any manufactured items moved from Japan to other countries either took the Japanese production culture with them or suffered. Nor do I know what the K3 II problem is or what needs to be done to fix it. What I do know is industry. And industry is industry, no mater what the product, just that same as business is business.

You may continue to dispute the things I say, that is your option. However I spent 38.5 years involved in US industry at various levels and I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air.

10-07-2015, 02:37 PM   #887
Moderator
Tom S.'s Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: S.E. Michigan
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,239
QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
????
Yeah, I couldn't figure that one out either. I take it English is a second language as he is from France, and I'll guarantee his English is vastly superior to my French, but that string of sentences left me scratching my head too.
10-07-2015, 02:47 PM - 1 Like   #888
Pentaxian
Mistral75's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Paris
Posts: 3,043
The more I think about it, the less I understand how the refurbishment of 2 months of K-3 II production can delay the 24x36 camera's announcement by something like 5 months (from early October to late February).

Besides, two different (and contradictory) reasons brought forward by the same people (Ricoh Imaging Scandinavia through kenspo) in less than 3 weeks:

- on September 18th: " we have decided to enrich some functions and specifications furthermore to satisfy our customers. We are expecting different launching schedule from previous announcement considering the time we need to develop.""

- on October 7th: "It is the callback of all the K-3 IIs that is the reason for the delay. The production line can't handle both the callback and the production of the FF. The FF is ready and specs are finished."

sounds a bit fishy...

Sorry kenspo, I don't buy the messages you have been asked to deliver. Either of them.
10-07-2015, 02:59 PM - 3 Likes   #889
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
kenspo's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Oslo
Posts: 1,983
QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Sorry kenspo, I don't buy the messages you have been asked to deliver. Either of them.
What you belive or not, i couldn't care less about. So no worries!

10-07-2015, 03:01 PM   #890
Pentaxian
D1N0's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: ---
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,439
QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
Yeah, I couldn't figure that one out either. I take it English is a second language as he is from France, and I'll guarantee his English is vastly superior to my French, but that string of sentences left me scratching my head too.
He said Ricoh shouldn't give us snippets of info, as we are to childish to deal with it. I Don't think he included himself
10-07-2015, 03:02 PM   #891
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
Mikesul's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,684
Thanks, Kenspo. I think many of us feared you had given up on the project. Don't let the rude complainers drive you away. Most of us understand that the messenger is not responsible if the message relayed turns out to be wrong through no fault of the messenger.




QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
After Hoya's raping of Pentax, people need to understand, that the production line with Pentax, is down to a minimum. They have no chance to produce as much as other brands..yet! I asked if i could share this info today, they said it has been cleared higher up in the chain. So take it the way you want. I just want to share what i can, but if people start getting at me for the info, i dont gain anything by sharing, so no stress for me to not share anymore. Like it or not, but dont shoot the messenger! Now back to read about the FF specs!

---------- Post added 10-07-15 at 10:55 PM ----------



No, they wont!
10-07-2015, 03:16 PM   #892
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,012
QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
The more I think about it, the less I understand how the refurbishment of 2 months of K-3 II production can delay the 24x36 camera's announcement by something like 5 months (from early October to late February).

Besides, two different (and contradictory) reasons brought forward by the same people (Ricoh Imaging Scandinavia through kenspo) in less than 3 weeks:

- on September 18th: " we have decided to enrich some functions and specifications furthermore to satisfy our customers. We are expecting different launching schedule from previous announcement considering the time we need to develop.""

- on October 7th: "It is the callback of all the K-3 IIs that is the reason for the delay. The production line can't handle both the callback and the production of the FF. The FF is ready and specs are finished."

sounds a bit fishy...

Sorry kenspo, I don't buy the messages you have been asked to deliver. Either of them.
A smart company will share as much engineering as they can amongst various products / lines. I've been expecting that much of the FF engineering would be based on the K3ii. In that context, the two statements are completely consistent. They found a basic problem in the K3ii which had been carried forward to the FF, so first they have to redo a bunch of K3ii cameras, and then they have to make some changes in the FF product. Perhaps the same people are involved in both, perhaps not, but in any case I can see how this scenario could cause major issues for a company as relatively small as Pentax is today.

BTW - this is one of the reasons I'm hoping that Pentax will keep the Q-family alive and progressing, even though I have one now and might not buy another one for a number of years; I believe they need to keep their MILC technology going, just in case MILC suddenly balloons in importance in the APS-C and FF worlds.
10-07-2015, 03:19 PM   #893
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Stratford, CT
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 667
QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
The more I think about it, the less I understand how the refurbishment of 2 months of K-3 II production can delay the 24x36 camera's announcement by something like 5 months (from early October to late February).
Maybe a small point, but I was under the impression that there would be an official announcement of some kind in October with availability "in late 2015." If that meant November or December, a delay until February (which might not be right either) is only a couple months. And despite one member's apparent intimate knowledge of Pentax's production capacity and the logistics of the K-3ii fix, we really don't know how long it should take.

However, I have no explanation for the "We're adding new features" line, other than adding something as long as there's a delay anyway.

10-07-2015, 03:22 PM - 3 Likes   #894
Pentaxian




Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,932
For all its worth, I asked the local distro here for information on the FF and I got about the same reasons as what Kenspo gave.
So as far as what info is available and able to be disclosed right now, thats all we got.

Whats it got to do with anything anyway?
We know one fact - the camera is in Spring.
Blaming Kenspo or Ashahiman won't make the camera come out faster.

So lets be gracious about it.
10-07-2015, 03:22 PM   #895
Pentaxian
Mistral75's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Paris
Posts: 3,043
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
A smart company will share as much engineering as they can amongst various products / lines. I've been expecting that much of the FF engineering would be based on the K3ii. In that context, the two statements are completely consistent. They found a basic problem in the K3ii which had been carried forward to the FF, so first they have to redo a bunch of K3ii cameras, and then they have to make some changes in the FF product. Perhaps the same people are involved in both, perhaps not, but in any case I can see how this scenario could cause major issues for a company as relatively small as Pentax is today.

(...).
But they had already found a solution and applied it to K-3 II after two months since the subsequent production was not affected. So, if one supposes that the basic problem in the K-3 II had been carried forward to the 24x36 camera, the only thing they had to do was to apply the same "fix" to the 24x36 camera as they had already done to K-3 II sometimes in June (on July 9th, date of Ricoh Imaging's press release, the problem was solved).

Last edited by Mistral75; 10-07-2015 at 03:27 PM.
10-07-2015, 03:27 PM - 1 Like   #896
Kiwi Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
NZ_Ross's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Timaru
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,283
Much as I am thoroughly enjoying this thread, and the wide ranging analysis based on very sparse information, I am reminded of Occam's razor which states: other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones

Have fun with all the theories (I certainly am), but remember Occam's razor sits at the core of scientific enquiry and method, and is also useful when thinking about the likelihood various conspiracy theories
10-07-2015, 03:30 PM   #897
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,462
QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
The more I think about it, the less I understand how the refurbishment of 2 months of K-3 II production can delay the 24x36 camera's announcement by something like 5 months (from early October to late February).

Besides, two different (and contradictory) reasons brought forward by the same people (Ricoh Imaging Scandinavia through kenspo) in less than 3 weeks:

- on September 18th: " we have decided to enrich some functions and specifications furthermore to satisfy our customers. We are expecting different launching schedule from previous announcement considering the time we need to develop.""

- on October 7th: "It is the callback of all the K-3 IIs that is the reason for the delay. The production line can't handle both the callback and the production of the FF. The FF is ready and specs are finished."

sounds a bit fishy...

Sorry kenspo, I don't buy the messages you have been asked to deliver. Either of them.
Let's keep in mind that kenspo has connections AFAIK with Ricoh Imaging Europe, and probably not directly with R&D and product planning in Japan. Some things might be lost, added or altered on the way.

However, there is a scenario in which both seemingly contradictory reasons would be true. First, I would not assume a 5 month delay requirement; all that was needed was to miss some 'last chance' target for this year (perhaps in time for Holidays). We might be inclined to believe the delay would be as short as possible, but that's not necessarily true; the next 'best' target would be, IMO, CP+. It makes sense to wait a bit for this major show, even if you could make an announcement e.g. in December or January.

That was the marketing/sales reason. Now, what would you want your R&D to do if you had some extra time until the camera enters production? Perhaps... to "enrich some functions and specification"? Maybe some stuff which was initially left out because it couldn't be ready by the end of the year.

The above is, of course, purely speculative - and only meant to show how little we know. Probably the two "contradictory" reasons are both true, and both fragments of the entire thing.
10-07-2015, 03:41 PM   #898
Pentaxian
Mistral75's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Paris
Posts: 3,043
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Let's keep in mind that kenspo has connections AFAIK with Ricoh Imaging Europe, and probably not directly with R&D and product planning in Japan. Some things might be lost, added or altered on the way.

(...).
Indeed and I made a specific reference to Ricoh Imaging Scandinavia in my message.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
(...)

However, there is a scenario in which both seemingly contradictory reasons would be true. First, I would not assume a 5 month delay requirement; all that was needed was to miss some 'last chance' target for this year (perhaps in time for Holidays). We might be inclined to believe the delay would be as short as possible, but that's not necessarily true; the next 'best' target would be, IMO, CP+. It makes sense to wait a bit for this major show, even if you could make an announcement e.g. in December or January.

(...).
That I can buy.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
(...)

Now, what would you want your R&D to do if you had some extra time until the camera enters production? Perhaps... to "enrich some functions and specification"? Maybe some stuff which was initially left out because it couldn't be ready by the end of the year.

(...)
If so, you can't ask your ambassador to proclaim on October 7th that "The FF is ready and specs are finished.".

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
(...)

Probably the two "contradictory" reasons are both true, and both fragments of the entire thing.

(...)
There is an intrinsic contradiction between the statement of September 18th = we defer launching "considering the time we need to develop." and the statement of October 7th "The FF is ready and specs are finished."
10-07-2015, 04:24 PM   #899
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,750
QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
He said Ricoh shouldn't give us snippets of info, as we are to childish to deal with it. I Don't think he included himself
If you are from Ricoh and you see the reactions in the forums you must be very cautious. You'd not want to say the reality because people would not accept it. You'd want a nice story that show how great the brand is and what wonderfull things they did that made them late.

So if you are reading the reason Ricoh are giving, you take that with a grain of salt... You understand that the real reason is not that important and that they didn't necessarily said the reality. Anyway, the real information is not the reason they are late but that they are late and that they don't know yet exactly when they will be finished because they didn't commited on a date but on a vague period "Spring".
10-07-2015, 04:26 PM   #900
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,462
As I said, let's keep in mind that kenspo has connections in Europe. Which means we should not put too much weight on the exact meaning of individual words; nitpicking is a waste of time.

"FF ready and specs are finished" could be that they were ready to switch from pre-production to production. I really don't think Ricoh Japan meant it as "we won't do anything else until spring"; I sure hope they'll at least tweak it a bit, perhaps improve/add firmware features if not hardware ones.
Basic specs should not change, so in a way they're "finished".
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
board, camera, cameras, canon, count, dimensions, drop, enemy, exactly, fa, ff, flash, fps, frame, k-3, ltds, market, pentax, pentax ff, pentax news, pentax rumors, release, richard, ricoh, samsung, schedule, time, trolls
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New APSC Pentax by early 2016, using Sony A7000 sensor? falconeye Pentax News and Rumors 857 03-24-2016 08:45 PM
Pentax FF vs Nikon FF sumitkar1971 Pentax Full Frame 52 12-01-2015 07:45 PM
Photokina 2016 - FF RonHendriks1966 Pentax Full Frame 62 02-04-2015 10:43 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:18 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top