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10-07-2015, 05:22 PM   #901
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
As I said, let's keep in mind that kenspo has connections in Europe.
Let me add one thing: those connections don't always prove the correctness of information. Does Tokyo really talk about the critical inside information in advance to a branch? No offense, but I think that the recent blunder surrounding Asahiman is a sign that Tokyo is very tight on information control. Branch people may have heard about some "rumor" in the house, but It isn't necessarily what Tokyo really intends.

10-07-2015, 05:24 PM   #902
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
Thanks, Kenspo. I think many of us feared you had given up on the project. Don't let the rude complainers drive you away. Most of us understand that the messenger is not responsible if the message relayed turns out to be wrong through no fault of the messenger.
I agree: Don't kill the messenger!
10-07-2015, 05:45 PM   #903
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
I know the specs, but if i share now, they will come from Japan to hunt me down!!! lol
I realize you can't share specs.. but are YOU impressed with the specs?
10-07-2015, 06:02 PM   #904
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
As I said, let's keep in mind that kenspo has connections in Europe. Which means we should not put too much weight on the exact meaning of individual words; nitpicking is a waste of time.
And to add to that the message received here started in Japanese, was translated to a different language for Ricoh Europe (or Scandinavia with possibly another translation between people there) then translated again into English at some point. Even if the message was quite clear, and not intentionally vague, it is easy for me to see how it might have mutated a bit along the way.

Translations work fine until people start hyper-analyzing the nuances of individual words. At that point gross misunderstandings become possible with no malice involved.

10-07-2015, 06:06 PM - 4 Likes   #905
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Originally posted by kenspo I know the specs, but if i share now, they will come from Japan to hunt me down!!! lol
Better be quiet for now, Kenspo!!

Last edited by jpzk; 10-16-2015 at 05:40 PM.
10-07-2015, 06:45 PM   #906
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
Don't let the rude complainers drive you away. Most of us understand that the messenger is not responsible if the message relayed turns out to be wrong through no fault of the messenger.
I don't see any "rude complainers".

Even Nicolas06 who very harshly interprets a change of heart on behalf of Ricoh as "kenspo having been wrong" says he does not blame kenspo.

Mistral75 merely points out, and correctly so, that the messages from Ricoh contradict each other. He does not complain about kenspo either.

FWIW, while I'm as curious as anyone else, I've never seen any leaks do any camera release any good. The standard pattern is that the unknown details are filled in by incredible fantasies that are impossible to be matched by the real product. Inevitably, the real release ends up being a disappointment relative to the fantasies, although in an absolute sense there is nothing to be disappointed about. I'd rather hear everything about a new camera on the day of announcement.
10-07-2015, 07:38 PM - 1 Like   #907
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Ricoh issued the K-3 II notice on 2015.07.10 with serial numbers, etc. By that time they already knew the scale of the problem and what it will take to fix. Also the notice mentions problem will be handled at the service centers, not shipped back to the factory assembly lines (although they might have done that at least for the ones they had in stock). The asahiman leak about October 6th was much later, around the end of August - assuming he didn't made that date up, but I don't think he did, and there's not much space for misenterpetation Japanese language or not. If they were experiencing production delays because of the recall to such extend that they'll have to delay the anouncement date (not the actual shipping date!) it should have been clear by then and they would not let the leak happen. Then some rushed teaser site (for something show in a very detailed 3d model already) appears few days before October 6th pushing the date somewhere in the spring next year. Few days later a lens is anounced that does not make much sense until FF camera is available to put it on... to me it sounds like it was a last minute decision to delay and they try to do some damage control
10-07-2015, 07:56 PM - 2 Likes   #908
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Spoke to Pentax today. It is the callback of all the K-3 II's that is the reason for the delay. The production line can't handle both the callback and the production of the FF. The FF is ready and specs are finished. Will start production as soon as the K-3 II issue is fixed.
I appreciate that Ricoh cares to share a reason for the delay, via kenspo.

However, the reason given can't be the real one, or the major part of the real one. The K-3II callback only affects early batches, has a 1 week return time at service centers (according to Pentax Europe service notice) with advice not to send in immediately as no immediate action is required and no warranty period would apply.

The problem obviously serves as a pretext. Fine with me, whatever they need.

I actually said early on that the published schedule is far to tight to be credible. Pentax needs pretexts in order not to loose face. Let's be it ok and thanks them for eventually doing FF at all

10-07-2015, 08:05 PM   #909
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I don't see any "rude complainers".

Even Nicolas06 who very harshly interprets a change of heart on behalf of Ricoh as "kenspo having been wrong" says he does not blame kenspo.

Mistral75 merely points out, and correctly so, that the messages from Ricoh contradict each other. He does not complain about kenspo either.

FWIW, while I'm as curious as anyone else, I've never seen any leaks do any camera release any good. The standard pattern is that the unknown details are filled in by incredible fantasies that are impossible to be matched by the real product. Inevitably, the real release ends up being a disappointment relative to the fantasies, although in an absolute sense there is nothing to be disappointed about. I'd rather hear everything about a new camera on the day of announcement.
I see at least one: Uluru here = Zvonimir Tosic on the other forum.

Also a hint to Nicolas06: like you, english is not my native language and therefore I try be careful when writing messages here. Misunderstanding arises so very easily, especially things like message tone are sometimes hard to interpret.
10-07-2015, 08:06 PM   #910
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I appreciate that Ricoh cares to share a reason for the delay, via kenspo.

However, the reason given can't be the real one, or the major part of the real one. The K-3II callback only affects early batches, has a 1 week return time at service centers (according to Pentax Europe service notice) with advice not to send in immediately as no immediate action is required and no warranty period would apply.

The problem obviously serves as a pretext. Fine with me, whatever they need.

I actually said early on that the published schedule is far to tight to be credible. Pentax needs pretexts in order not to loose face. Let's be it ok and thanks them for eventually doing FF at all
Hear, hear! The voice of wisdom (I mean it seriously).
10-07-2015, 08:37 PM   #911
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I appreciate that Ricoh cares to share a reason for the delay, via kenspo.

However, the reason given can't be the real one, or the major part of the real one. The K-3II callback only affects early batches, has a 1 week return time at service centers (according to Pentax Europe service notice) with advice not to send in immediately as no immediate action is required and no warranty period would apply.

The problem obviously serves as a pretext. Fine with me, whatever they need.

I actually said early on that the published schedule is far to tight to be credible. Pentax needs pretexts in order not to loose face. Let's be it ok and thanks them for eventually doing FF at all
Unless the issue was discovered in production line copies of the FF body too after it was discovered in the K-3 II. That could possibly swamp them.... maybe.

But, yes, whatever. Just as long as the camera actually arrives early next year. If it is kicked down the road again.. that would be a big bummer.
10-07-2015, 11:16 PM   #912
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
The more I think about it, the less I understand how the refurbishment of 2 months of K-3 II production can delay the 24x36 camera's announcement by something like 5 months (from early October to late February).

Besides, two different (and contradictory) reasons brought forward by the same people (Ricoh Imaging Scandinavia through kenspo) in less than 3 weeks:

- on September 18th: " we have decided to enrich some functions and specifications furthermore to satisfy our customers. We are expecting different launching schedule from previous announcement considering the time we need to develop.""

- on October 7th: "It is the callback of all the K-3 IIs that is the reason for the delay. The production line can't handle both the callback and the production of the FF. The FF is ready and specs are finished."

sounds a bit fishy...

Sorry kenspo, I don't buy the messages you have been asked to deliver. Either of them.
Well, you don't know in which position the source of this information is. Maybe quite high regional marketing managment, that has seen the need to bring "any" somehow positive statements with the message (the first statement is of no real information but would be used for anything which got postponed) and maybe the second statement was later officially delivered from Japan...

However, I doubt that one can conclude too much from this, it is a matter of fact that as soon as local Ricoh management got the information that the original plan to present something at the date they were given and they have willently leaked was changed they needed to do something to prevent disappointment in the community.

Regarding the plausibility of the timeframe in connection to the second explanation, why not consider that Ricoh might see just certain temporal benchmarks (or better called fixed key dates) to be suited best for presentation of new products. One might have been fall, before Xmas season, another one spring, aiming at big industrial venues, like it seems to be with CP+. I definitely don't see any reason for any conspiracy here.

Last edited by MMVIII; 10-08-2015 at 12:35 AM.
10-08-2015, 12:18 AM   #913
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QuoteOriginally posted by Daikokuya Quote
Let me add one thing: those connections don't always prove the correctness of information. Does Tokyo really talk about the critical inside information in advance to a branch? No offense, but I think that the recent blunder surrounding Asahiman is a sign that Tokyo is very tight on information control. Branch people may have heard about some "rumor" in the house, but It isn't necessarily what Tokyo really intends.
I would not call asahi man's 6th October a "blunder"; that date might have been correct... until the decision to postpone things.

The tight information control is quite obvious, IMO; but I don't think information coming straight from Japan is false. Perhaps incomplete, misinterpreted, mistranslated.

Last edited by Kunzite; 10-08-2015 at 12:25 AM.
10-08-2015, 12:36 AM   #914
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I would not call asahi man's 6th October a "blunder"; that date might have been correct... until the decision to postpone things.
Maybe we will just have to add '6th of October' and "Pentax Full Frame delay' to Vizzini's list of classic blunders in The Princess Bride :

"You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha... "
10-08-2015, 12:42 AM   #915
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I realize you can't share specs.. but are YOU impressed with the specs?
Nice try If he would answer positively PF would go wild at once with unrealistic fantasies like it always does. And certainly he cant answer no. Maybe it's better for our health to wait until next year (or an official statement of cause).
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