[DeadJohn]

...Japanese have introduced to the world many concepts, and meeting deadlines is one of them...

I already replied to this but I just read it to my wife and thought of something new. She failed to inherit that "meeting deadlines" gene from her ancestors. She is good at math, though

---------- Post added 09-24-15 at 11:40 PM ----------

Don't forget about the ignore button, everyone. Quoting trolls is feeding trolls.

I think the thread has run it's course, anyway, so replying to stupid statements isn't derailing a productive thread. We all know the FF is delayed and we(*) don't know why.

(*) A few insiders might know but they can't post it here, or else they won't get future opportunities to know.

[NZ_Ross]

I think the thread has run it's course, anyway, so replying to stupid statements isn't derailing a productive thread. We all know the FF is delayed and we(*) don't know why.

Thats hardly fair - we are only 602 comments in, based on one announcement and shipping change. I reckon there is at least another 400 to go yet.....

[reh321]

Don't forget about the ignore button, everyone. Quoting trolls is feeding trolls.

And what's the harm in that?

People here are bored, with nothing to talk about.
The trolls are hungry.
According to reports, Adam's business plan needs us to be regularly making comments about something, anything.

Feeding the trolls takes care of all of these needs.

[Nicolas06]

The price of the sensor from Sony Semiconductors is the cost of the sensor for Sony camera's business. The impact of price for you (user) is the cost of the sensor + the associated margin. Therefore, for a given 50% gross margin at Sony semiconductors and 50% at Sony Cameras, an hypothetical double cost of the 42Mp BSI sensor lead to a 4x (four times) higher price contribution of the sensor in the pricing of the end product camera.To have an idea, an APSC sensor area is about twice the area of a Pentium processor, if the know the price of a Pentium processor. Basically, 1 inch sensors sell at about a few dollars, an APSC sensor sells at about $150 and a full frame sensor sells at about $450, but a BSI full frame sensor sells at $600 due to the number of additional manufacturing process steps required and eventually additional yield loss. An MF sensor selling price is about $2000 more or less. And I don't add the cost of the application process that you need beside the larger sensor. Now, add the margins of the camera manufacturers and see for yourself if what I wrote is crazy or not. About the pricing of a 300m2 silicon chip, please refer for instance to the price list provided here: Intel Corporation - Processor Price List

A few things are strange to me here. A K50 is selling for less than 300$... But the sensor cost to camera manufacturer is 150$. Still there the need to have the body, pentaprism, mirror, electronics, weather selling, SR... and the warrenty All the stuff. And the body need to be brought to B&H and B&H must make a profit. They are also proposing a 4% reward. So to me Ricoh can't really expert to make more than 250$ on it if B&H people are allowed to make some money. To me if an APSC sensor cost is 150$, Ricoh is simply selling K50 without any margin or at a loss.

It look more reasonnable to think that an APSC sensor selling price to camera manufacturer is arround 50-100$, maybe 150$ for a premium one you'd found in a K3 and even honestly this sensor is now 2 years old. But ok let assume it very premium and we take $600 price for BSI sensor.

Now go back to this K50 that selling for $300. Let's put a BSI FF sensor inside. Say Sony really sell for $600 the sensor, that 500$ more for Pentax for your computation. If they take 100% margin to cover all costs, that 1000$ more. They can sell their K50 with FF sensor for 1300$. If we think of it, it make sense: Sony is selling FF sensor for arround this price and they don't have to pay for mirror and use a "normal" non BSI senso but that give an idea.

Sure the mirror is a bit small and maybe the shutter is not good but it would work for taking APSC shoots. But I'am sure you could do all that with a comfortable margin and ask for $3000 in the end. That still 1650$ more.

So no really by your number I don't see any issue.

---

Last edited by Nicolas06; 09-25-2015 at 12:17 AM.

[biz-engineer]

body, pentaprism, mirror, electronics, weather selling, SR

- Body made of magnesium allow cast, at the cost per kg of magnesium allow, a few $10.
- Pentaprism: a piece of low grade glass, a few dollar.
- Electronics... included in my rough estimates, a few $10.
- Weather sealing = 77 rubber joins, a few dollar.
- SR: copper coils, a few dollar

So no really by your number I don't see any issue.

I think I understood that your point was that Sony's A7RII price is excessive and not justified by the cost of the 42Mp BSI sensor. So I tried to reconstruct a costing senario from what I roughly know. But perhaps I understood your post incorrectly.

[Simen1]

Since I have the K-3, I process images with the K-3 itself, because the 32bits processor of my old laptop is too slow with the 24Mp. If I'd upgrade to a FF 36Mp or 42Mp, smoke would come out of the 32 bits CPU.
So, not only I should save money for a FF cam; but in addition I also have to save money for a new computer and more HDD storage.

All it means is that heavy post processing will take longer. Take one or two more sips of coffee/tea for 36 or 42 Mp respectively.

[Mistral75]

Pentax answer on the question around being behind schedule:

"No, we are on schedule. But we have decided to enrich some functions and specifications furthermore to satisfy our customers.
We are expecting different launching schedule from previous announcement considering the time we need to develop."

I'm getting back to this statement reported by kenspo -emphasis added is mine. Something just came to my mind; since:

(i) the sales of K-3 II are well below the objectives assigned to the camera, at least in France and in Europe (information gathered from a few Pentax retailers and then confirmed by people from Ricoh Imaging France, the latter being also the European headquarter of Ricoh Imaging);

(ii) the most violent criticism made against K-3 II, in the press and on the forums, is the lack of built-in flash;

(iii) the mock-up of the future 24x36 camera presented at CP+ witnessed the absence of built-in flash at that stage of the project;

(iv) Ricoh Imaging are keen on responding to criticisms from Pentax customers, see for instance the "Ricoh" label put on the backside of K-3 and then removed from more recent cameras;

what if the "enriched functions and specifications" to be brought to the 24x36 camera "to satisfy customers" had to do with the re-introduction of a built-in flash and the subsequent re-arrangement of the wi-fi / astrotracer module?

Just food for thought.

[Glorfindelrb]

Now let's blame those who needs the build-in flash adding a 6 month delay to our FF!
I don't need the flash but that sounds possible they did it for good reviews. Would be sad.

The real problems of the K3II are the K3 still being very good and best value for price and people saving for FF.

[totsmuyco]

I have a k-3II and still learning about the camera. Though the built in flash may have some advantages, I don't use it as often since the outcome isn't good. But I wouldn't really die if I don't have it. I'm also not into GPS. But, the k-3II has it and I also don't mind it at all. As long as the camera isn't defective, all I do is live with what's on board.

[D1N0]

Let's call it On Board Flash or people will start to want a BIF on their camera and Ricoh will start selling eagles with camera's attached.

---------- Post added 25-09-15 at 15:32 ----------

I'm getting back to this statement reported by kenspo -emphasis added is mine. Something just came to my mind; since:

(i) the sales of K-3 II are well below the objectives assigned to the camera, at least in France and in Europe (information gathered from a few Pentax retailers and then confirmed by people from Ricoh Imaging France, the latter being also the European headquarter of Ricoh Imaging);

(ii) the most violent criticism made against K-3 II, in the press and on the forums, is the lack of built-in flash;

(iii) the mock-up of the future 24x36 camera presented at CP+ witnessed the absence of built-in flash at that stage of the project;

(iv) Ricoh Imaging are keen on responding to criticisms from Pentax customers, see for instance the "Ricoh" label put on the backside of K-3 and then removed from more recent cameras;

what if the "enriched functions and specifications" to be brought to the 24x36 camera "to satisfy customers" had to do with the re-introduction of a built-in flash and the subsequent re-arrangement of the wi-fi / astrotracer module?

Just food for thought.

Decreasing sales have a number of causes. some of them due to the missing flash, but also the K-3 is not a big improvement on the K-5 (II) not everybody needs the extra resolution. People are waiting for the FF (so don't tweak it endlessly) The digital camera market is saturated. More serious mirrorless contenders have appeared. (Sony A7 series, Fuji x-t1, Olympus e-m1, Samsung NX-1, Panasonic GH-4) Nikon D610 D750 and Canon 6D are in range of potential K-3 II Buyers, Direct competition from the D7200 and 7D MK II.

[Kharan]

Let's call it On Board Flash or people will start to want a BIF on their camera and Ricoh will start selling eagles with camera's attached.

---------- Post added 25-09-15 at 15:32 ----------



Decreasing sales have a number of causes. some of them due to the missing flash, but also the K-3 is not a big improvement on the K-5 (II) not everybody needs the extra resolution. People are waiting for the FF (so don't tweak it endlessly) The digital camera market is saturated. More serious mirrorless contenders have appeared. (Sony A7 series, Fuji x-t1, Olympus e-m1, Samsung NX-1, Panasonic GH-4) Nikon D610 D750 and Canon 6D are in range of potential K-3 II Buyers, Direct competition from the D7200 and 7D MK II.

Indeed. Let's not forget that the original K-3 was introduced before the 7DII, and for a while was the most advanced APS-C DSLR on the market. It certainly helped its sales and reputation. Now, it's not so with the second version, which offers some interesting additional functions, but really was a bad idea. It was introduced at a terrible time.

[Krizu]

I honestly doubt that having no flash prevented one single sale of the K-3II. Since it is the prosumer variant, the people buying such a camera should be able to distinguish what a pop up flash is capable of and what not.
On the other hand, every day I whitness tourists with highend FF cameras popping up their flashes to shoot our central church at night from 120m away. So there seems to be a market for that ;-)

[normhead]

I honestly doubt that having no flash prevented one single sale of the K-3II. Since it is the prosumer variant, the people buying such a camera should be able to distinguish what a pop up flash is capable of and what not.
On the other hand, every day I whitness tourists with highend FF cameras popping up their flashes to shoot our central church at night from 120m away. So there seems to be a market for that ;-)

Thank god they have full frames, or their pictures would be crap.

But it does beg a serious question... how many cameras are sold to people who will never scratch the surface of their capabilities, because they have seen a person, whom they judge to be better photographers than themselves, using that camera. Or who like, me every time I hear the word Canon, images of Maria Sharapova doing her catwalk strut comes into my mind. I'm not really sure why I haven't bought 50 Canon cameras by now.

[rawr]

the sales of K-3 II are well below the objectives assigned to the camera

I bet one would see a similar story between sales of the Nikon D7200 and Nikon D7100. The transition from one to another resembles the K-3 and K-3 II situation. The big sales story was from 16 MP K-5II/ D7000 to 24 MP K-3/D7100. Due to the basic similarity of body there is not a lot of reason for K-3/D7100 users to upgrade to K-3II/D7200, and the new buyers who wanted 24 MP got the message with the K-3/ D7100.

Incremental upgrades are a hard sell.

[AOCO]

I'm getting back to this statement reported by kenspo -emphasis added is mine. Something just came to my mind; since:

(i) the sales of K-3 II are well below the objectives assigned to the camera, at least in France and in Europe (information gathered from a few Pentax retailers and then confirmed by people from Ricoh Imaging France, the latter being also the European headquarter of Ricoh Imaging);

(ii) the most violent criticism made against K-3 II, in the press and on the forums, is the lack of built-in flash;

(iii) the mock-up of the future 24x36 camera presented at CP+ witnessed the absence of built-in flash at that stage of the project;

(iv) Ricoh Imaging are keen on responding to criticisms from Pentax customers, see for instance the "Ricoh" label put on the backside of K-3 and then removed from more recent cameras;

what if the "enriched functions and specifications" to be brought to the 24x36 camera "to satisfy customers" had to do with the re-introduction of a built-in flash and the subsequent re-arrangement of the wi-fi / astrotracer module?

Just food for thought.

I can't manage to figure why the love with built in flash since there is a hot shoe and very compact flash on the market .
Shouldn't we need a buit in tripod or a built in mug heater ?