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09-30-2015, 09:15 PM   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Nikon's interface superiority?
I dunno about their high end cams but D3xxx to D7000 (7100/7200 I dunno), their interface laughable, badly designed and without any apparent logic (to me).
Yes is this strongly subjective

I hope (for the owners) their D700+ cams are better thought.
Yes, I had this exact discussion here when I tested / reviewed the K-3. I found its interface nice, and with familiarity it really does work well. However I still found it not as customizable and adaptable as Nikon's prosumer and pro cameras. Nikon puts more effort into allowing advanced customization of both menus and physical buttons, in areas that most all others do not. (Including Canon, by the way)

Part of this is obviously entirely subjective, because it does have a lot to do with familiarity, and how people's brains / shooting habits are wired. I'll be the first to admit that.

However, I maintain that it is indeed possible for one camera / system's customizability and interface to actually, quantitatively be at an advantage over another, definitely beyond the ambiguity of personal preference.

For example on prosumer Nikons, face-detection is built into the image playback so with the twirl of a command dial it can scroll from face to face at 100% zoom, allowing portrait photographers to verify sharpness / blinking with incredible speed that saves quite a few seconds per click while on the job.

TLDR; I'm sure that practically every photographer who has only ever fully experienced a single system is probably quite happy with that one system, and considers it highly usable and practical. However myself as someone who makes a (partial) living by testing and reviewing MANY systems, I'm positive that it is possible to tally up advantages and disadvantages, and discover that they do indeed favor one system over another. Does this mean I'd refuse to use any system other than the one I conclude is the best? Not at all. If the Pentax full-frame camera interface is good enough, I'll gladly dump my Nikon D750 in favor of it. However at present, I have my doubts. I'll buy the Pentax FF body immediately when it comes out, but I may decide to only use it for adventure, landscape, and astro-landscape photography, and continue to use my D750 for weddings. Call it mere familiarity and comfort, if you'd like to, but I'll approach the experience with as much of an open mind as I possibly can and will definitely share my opinion when I have enough experience to form it...

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10-01-2015, 02:47 AM   #242
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Different strokes, I suppose. I agree that Canon (and Soy for that matter) have hands-down the worst interfaces, but I found the Nikon interfaces to be middle-of-the-pack at best, not to mention the Nikon ergonomics, which IMO are the worst among serious DSLRs.

My real favorite, believe it or not, was the one Olympus used on its 4/3 DSLRs, which eschewed a ton of bells and whistles in favor of elegant simplicity and a very intuitive layout. The Pentax layout is the closest I've found to that experience in modern DSLRs.

QuoteOriginally posted by Matthew Saville Quote
Yes, I had this exact discussion here when I tested / reviewed the K-3. I found its interface nice, and with familiarity it really does work well. However I still found it not as customizable and adaptable as Nikon's prosumer and pro cameras. Nikon puts more effort into allowing advanced customization of both menus and physical buttons, in areas that most all others do not. (Including Canon, by the way)

Part of this is obviously entirely subjective, because it does have a lot to do with familiarity, and how people's brains / shooting habits are wired. I'll be the first to admit that.

However, I maintain that it is indeed possible for one camera / system's customizability and interface to actually, quantitatively be at an advantage over another, definitely beyond the ambiguity of personal preference.

For example on prosumer Nikons, face-detection is built into the image playback so with the twirl of a command dial it can scroll from face to face at 100% zoom, allowing portrait photographers to verify sharpness / blinking with incredible speed that saves quite a few seconds per click while on the job.

TLDR; I'm sure that practically every photographer who has only ever fully experienced a single system is probably quite happy with that one system, and considers it highly usable and practical. However myself as someone who makes a (partial) living by testing and reviewing MANY systems, I'm positive that it is possible to tally up advantages and disadvantages, and discover that they do indeed favor one system over another. Does this mean I'd refuse to use any system other than the one I conclude is the best? Not at all. If the Pentax full-frame camera interface is good enough, I'll gladly dump my Nikon D750 in favor of it. However at present, I have my doubts. I'll buy the Pentax FF body immediately when it comes out, but I may decide to only use it for adventure, landscape, and astro-landscape photography, and continue to use my D750 for weddings. Call it mere familiarity and comfort, if you'd like to, but I'll approach the experience with as much of an open mind as I possibly can and will definitely share my opinion when I have enough experience to form it...

=Matt=
10-01-2015, 05:15 AM   #243
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matthew Saville Quote
For example on prosumer Nikons, face-detection is built into the image playback so with the twirl of a command dial it can scroll from face to face at 100% zoom, allowing portrait photographers to verify sharpness / blinking with incredible speed
Oooh, I wouldn't mind this one. Please, Ricoh.
10-01-2015, 07:49 AM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Nikon's interface superiority?
I dunno about their high end cams but D3xxx to D7000 (7100/7200 I dunno), their interface laughable, badly designed and without any apparent logic (to me).
Yes is this strongly subjective

I hope (for the owners) their D700+ cams are better thought.
I completely agree! Nikon cameras (of all types) are the only ones that always leave me staring at them at a loss. I find their operation a nightmare. Of course, I'm sure I could adapt to them in time, but it seems like a difficult proposition, at least from my limited experience with them.

I'm a Canon guy when it comes to interfaces. I find their layouts the best, followed by Panasonic and then Pentax. I don't have nearly as much trouble with Sony cams as many other people, I think their interface is fairly straightforward. Olympus and Fuji don't gel with me, but they're not bad.

10-01-2015, 09:00 AM - 1 Like   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kharan Quote
I completely agree! Nikon cameras (of all types) are the only ones that always leave me staring at them at a loss. I find their operation a nightmare. Of course, I'm sure I could adapt to them in time, but it seems like a difficult proposition, at least from my limited experience with them.

I'm a Canon guy when it comes to interfaces. I find their layouts the best, followed by Panasonic and then Pentax. I don't have nearly as much trouble with Sony cams as many other people, I think their interface is fairly straightforward. Olympus and Fuji don't gel with me, but they're not bad.
The "limited experience with them" is key, IMO. I've had the good fortune to be able to use both Canon and Nikon DSLRs for over a decade now, getting familiar with practically every lineup of camera they make from beginner to flagship.

Once you can wrap your mind around how different the interfaces are, you begin to notice the true perks (and disadvantages) of each. As another example, Nikon didn't offer custom settings banks in the proper way until very recently; they previously had two entirely separate menu banks that were very annoying for some, but highly practical for others. I enjoyed being able to change a handful of settings all at once, but not others. (So for example I could go from shooting 12-bit compressed RAW for high-volume sports / weddings to shooting 14-bit lossless RAW, with a few other settings tweaks as well, for serious landscapes, without digging through a bunch of different menu items...)

While daunting, the Nikon interface has offered what I feel is the most generously customizable menu section possible. Canon still only offers one single page of custom menu items, Sony only offers two rows of custom menu items, and AFAIK Pentax doesn't even have something truly equivalent; although they do have some customizable interface areas that are similar. Nikon offers a custom menu that is 18 items long, or two and a half pages worth of custom menu items. That is enough for almost any OCD photographer to create a personal menu so thorough that they practically never need to dig through any of the other menus, ever!

Each brand system has it's own perks that I wish others would adopt. Maybe some are patented and will simply never find their way into other cameras. I highly doubt Nikon or Canon will EVER be able to do something like astro-tracing, for example, which is one of the reasons I'm switching to Pentax for my astro-landscape photography adventures. (That, and the incredible array of highly weather-sealed products, right down to the more affordable / beginner gear!)

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10-01-2015, 09:26 AM   #246
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This recent discussion raises an issue that has bedeviled me since I got my K10D - changing analog layouts, i.e. the locations of various buttons on the camera. It's bad enough they change when switching from a flagship to a midrange (K-3 to K-01, in my case). It's even more frustrating to fall into the upgrade cycle trap. I barely have time to develop good mental and muscle memory for fingers on the controls when the next body arrives, always with at least slightly different functions and button locations.

IMHO, at least some of the incessant negative commenting on all brand forums has to do with physical interface dissonance. I try to stay with a camera as long as possible not so much to be conservative with money as to stay familiar with its controls.
10-01-2015, 11:11 AM   #247
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
This recent discussion raises an issue that has bedeviled me since I got my K10D - changing analog layouts, i.e. the locations of various buttons on the camera. It's bad enough they change when switching from a flagship to a midrange (K-3 to K-01, in my case). It's even more frustrating to fall into the upgrade cycle trap. I barely have time to develop good mental and muscle memory for fingers on the controls when the next body arrives, always with at least slightly different functions and button locations. .
I find with pentax, they keep their interfaces close at least in the k3/k5 and that is what makes them easy to pick up and use. Even the 645z has a similar interface. This different than the Canon and Nikon consumer and prosumer models, where buttons are rearranged and menu items change year to year in the same model line. We will see on the FF how many extra buttons will be added or will they stick with their tried and true scheme. I think Pentax has done something right because seems that every person who has used the 645z coming from years with Canikon, goes "I started using it, and started to fall in love"
10-01-2015, 02:42 PM   #248
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I saw a Tamron 24-70 in a shop today. Now that's a big chunk of glass!

10-01-2015, 02:51 PM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I saw a Tamron 24-70 in a shop today. Now that's a big chunk of glass!
People like to complain about the size of the 16-50mm and the 16-85mm.
I think those folks are in for a rude awakening when it comes to the size of performance FF glass.
10-01-2015, 03:03 PM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
People like to complain about the size of the 16-50mm and the 16-85mm.
I think those folks are in for a rude awakening when it comes to the size of performance FF glass.
Indeed. OTOH, a 24-70 f/2.8 is like a 16-50 f/2, so it's more versatile than the 16-50.
10-02-2015, 04:17 AM   #251
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finally, we're back to discussing lenses. The 16-50 isn't that big, unless compared to a Limited prime.
10-02-2015, 05:19 AM   #252
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Heh.The only "big Pentax lens" in my collection, or which I have even handled, is the DA 18-250 f/3.5-6.3. I find myself looking at the specs of all the other "big lenses" and comparing them to that. And quite frankly, if I'm going to carry something bigger and heavier, I want performance to match - constant wide aperture, or longer reach (at either end) or something to make the weight and bulk worthwhile. No wonder I've gravitated so heavily towards primes recently.
10-02-2015, 11:19 AM   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by dcshooter Quote
Different strokes, I suppose. I agree that Canon (and Soy for that matter) have hands-down the worst interfaces, but I found the Nikon interfaces to be middle-of-the-pack at best, not to mention the Nikon ergonomics, which IMO are the worst among serious DSLRs.

Indeed! I think Sony interface is the best, followed by Pentax, then Nikon. Never seriously used Canon, not enough to judge the interface.

Nikon's ergonomics range from great IMO (hand-hold-ability) to silly (lens release button, switching modes A/M/S).
10-02-2015, 12:08 PM   #254
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This goes to show that when people say "Brand X's interface is THE BEST" to take it with a huge grain of salt and another example of people stating opinion as fact. I for one think Canon and Pentax are neck and neck, and I do not like Sony's at all. Nikon, IMHO, used to be great. The D90 was my first DSLR and I loved its interface. But, as Monochrome noted above and Thom Hogan has noted in numerous articles, they just could not leave well enough alone and kept tweaking and tweaking
10-03-2015, 01:45 PM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
This goes to show that when people say "Brand X's interface is THE BEST" to take it with a huge grain of salt and another example of people stating opinion as fact. I for one think Canon and Pentax are neck and neck, and I do not like Sony's at all. Nikon, IMHO, used to be great. The D90 was my first DSLR and I loved its interface. But, as Monochrome noted above and Thom Hogan has noted in numerous articles, they just could not leave well enough alone and kept tweaking and tweaking
"Nikon has moved the cheese AGAIN" Hahaha! It's true, and that's one area that Canon handles a bit better. Pentax at least keeps the dials and the D-Pad stable, which form the backbone of the interface. The newer Sony cameras are muuuch better at this, though, becoming increasingly similar in control layout and operation.
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