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09-30-2015, 06:32 AM   #346
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Not always. And, in some situations that do have more than one 'side', those other 'sides' are flat out wrong.

Take, for instance, the Earth is flat vs the Earth is round..
The Earth is essentially flat if you're considering a small enough portion of it, and it's treated as flat if you use a projected coordinate system to calculate the distance between two points. Parallax's point about there being two ways to look at everything is valid, IMO.

BTW, do we have to derail the thread by talking about cheese only? I enjoy a good bacon discussion.

09-30-2015, 06:35 AM - 1 Like   #347
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Not always. And, in some situations that do have more than one 'side', those other 'sides' are flat out wrong.

Take, for instance, the Earth is flat vs the Earth is round..
In your example, yes. One is flat wrong, but when it comes to opinion, e.g. what percentage of product failure is acceptable, or "Pentax sucks, no it doesn't, yes it does, (ad infinitem)" there is no right or wrong.
Where things take a left turn is when people present opinion as fact. "I think ........... , therefore it is so" is both match and gasoline.
09-30-2015, 07:26 AM   #348
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
I would really love to see Pentax improve in this area. But I'm not obligated to put my money on the line to prop up a brand. Sigma has done an incredible job of supporting the Pentax community, so that's where my money has gone. I would not exchange any of my 5 "awesome" Sigma lenses for the nearest Pentax equivalent, warranty/reliability issues aside. Sigma has just been making great lenses lately.
Currently I am using three lenses on my K-30 - the Pentax 18-135 DC, Sigma 10-20, and Sigma 70-300. As I have already commented, I was disappointed that the K-mount variants of the Sigma lenses use screw-mount, because I was very happy with the in-lens motor on my Canon EF-mount version of the Sigma 10-20.
09-30-2015, 07:31 AM   #349
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Not always. And, in some situations that do have more than one 'side', those other 'sides' are flat out wrong.

Take, for instance, the Earth is flat vs the Earth is round..
The Earth is neither flat or round... it's spherical (for the most part).

09-30-2015, 07:49 AM - 1 Like   #350
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In lens motors are a double edged sword. They definitely increase risk of lens failure -- even in non Pentax lenses. I expect my FA limited to be fine in twenty years, lenses with in lens motors will require periodic tune ups and possible motor replacement in order to still be functional. At the same time people complain a lot about the noise of screw drive.

SDM is problematic mostly on the 16-50 and 50-135. Rates of failure on other SDM lenses seem to be very low. Ed's decision to paint all Pentax lenses with a broad brush is fairly useless in this setting. We have no idea really the rates do failure for any of these lenses with Sigma, Canon or Nikon. We think it is low, but is it really?
09-30-2015, 08:05 AM - 1 Like   #351
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
SDM is problematic mostly on the 16-50 and 50-135. Rates of failure on other SDM lenses seem to be very low. Ed's decision to paint all Pentax lenses with a broad brush is fairly useless in this setting. We have no idea really the rates do failure for any of these lenses with Sigma, Canon or Nikon. We think it is low, but is it really?
So maybe some of the other lenses are unfairly guilty by association. What exactly was the problem? Why were certain lenses seemingly more susceptible than others? Unfortunately, we mostly just have speculation as answers, since Pentax has chosen to be less than forthcoming on the matter. But whose fault is that?

But again, the reliability of certain SDM's is only a part of the issue. I've already said this. For me, the more immediate concern is the poor reputation of the North American support infrastructure and customer service. I would be very upset if I was one of these people who ended up waiting in the dark for months for service. I don't have the budget to have much backup equipment. Why risk it, when Sigma (and Tamron, to a lesser degree) offer some very compelling alternatives? And if my Sigma does need service, I can feel confident that it will go smoothly. I just wish I could say the same for Pentax, so I absolutely adore their camera bodies.

And why keep my thoughts in this regard a secret? I don't think I've been nasty about anything. If somebody can't handle an alternative viewpoint, then Pentax is really not for them. As a Pentax camera user and Sigma lens user, I guess I'm in a niche of a niche.
09-30-2015, 08:16 AM   #352
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QuoteOriginally posted by JibbaJab Quote
BTW, do we have to derail the thread by talking about cheese only? I enjoy a good bacon discussion.
Mmmm....Bacon and Cheese...
09-30-2015, 08:18 AM   #353
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
So maybe some of the other lenses are unfairly guilty by association. What exactly was the problem? Why were certain lenses seemingly more susceptible than others? Unfortunately, we mostly just have speculation as answers, since Pentax has chosen to be less than forthcoming on the matter. But whose fault is that?

But again, the reliability of certain SDM's is only a part of the issue. I've already said this. For me, the more immediate concern is the poor reputation of the North American support infrastructure and customer service. I would be very upset if I was one of these people who ended up waiting in the dark for months for service. I don't have the budget to have much backup equipment. Why risk it, when Sigma (and Tamron, to a lesser degree) offer some very compelling alternatives? And if my Sigma does need service, I can feel confident that it will go smoothly. I just wish I could say the same for Pentax, so I absolutely adore their camera bodies.

And why keep my thoughts in this regard a secret? I don't think I've been nasty about anything. If somebody can't handle an alternative viewpoint, then Pentax is really not for them. As a Pentax camera user and Sigma lens user, I guess I'm in a niche of a niche.
The same infrastructure applies to camera bodies and those have been more prone to problems in my experience than Pentax lenses. If you choose to buy Pentax, you will deal with CRIS or now Precision. They can be quick if they have parts, but there are plenty of horror stories (same is true for Nikon and Canon -- non pro gear). I am a pretty optimistic guy and just deal, but if you are scared, than Pentax is probably not the brand for you.

09-30-2015, 08:35 AM   #354
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The same infrastructure applies to camera bodies and those have been more prone to problems in my experience than Pentax lenses.
You make a good point, but replacing my used K-30 with another used K-30 would only be about $200-$250. A little more I suppose and I could have a new K-50. So if my K-30 were to fail, I would probably not even bother getting it repaired since it would likely be cost prohibitive. But for the expensive lenses that I rely on, it's would be a different story.
09-30-2015, 08:37 AM   #355
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
So maybe some of the other lenses are unfairly guilty by association. What exactly was the problem? Why were certain lenses seemingly more susceptible than others? Unfortunately, we mostly just have speculation as answers, since Pentax has chosen to be less than forthcoming on the matter. But whose fault is that?

But again, the reliability of certain SDM's is only a part of the issue. I've already said this. For me, the more immediate concern is the poor reputation of the North American support infrastructure and customer service. I would be very upset if I was one of these people who ended up waiting in the dark for months for service. I don't have the budget to have much backup equipment. Why risk it, when Sigma (and Tamron, to a lesser degree) offer some very compelling alternatives? And if my Sigma does need service, I can feel confident that it will go smoothly. I just wish I could say the same for Pentax, so I absolutely adore their camera bodies.

And why keep my thoughts in this regard a secret? I don't think I've been nasty about anything. If somebody can't handle an alternative viewpoint, then Pentax is really not for them. As a Pentax camera user and Sigma lens user, I guess I'm in a niche of a niche.
I don't know how consumer rights are handled in North America, in Europe there are strong regulations on that which offer some protection, by law for at least two years. However, looking at recent history I would think Pentax' handling of problems was not so bad, beeing it stains on sensors (free of charge exchange of K-5 cameras) or power off issues (repair of affected K-3). There was more bad aftertaste with Nikon's reaction to oil spill on sensor - ignoring it and bringing a new model, meh.
09-30-2015, 08:39 AM   #356
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I think to a very large degree there is a consumer dissonance between demands for low purchase prices and expectations to receive additional peripheral benefits and support. Each consumer has a unique set and order of peripheral demands, so a manufacturer must either provide all peripherals all the time or perform business decision triage on what to include and what to ignore.

Unfortunately market price is driven by the big two and raising the market clearing price so junior competitors can breathe and provide peripheral benefits profitably is not in their interest. This is the dark side of a bi-opoly.
09-30-2015, 08:46 AM   #357
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
You make a good point, but replacing my used K-30 with another used K-30 would only be about $200-$250. A little more I suppose and I could have a new K-50. So if my K-30 were to fail, I would probably not even bother getting it repaired since it would likely be cost prohibitive. But for the expensive lenses that I rely on, it's would be a different story.
Perhaps. In the end, my goal is to buy a product that does not need service and most Pentax lenses actually fit the bill nicely.
09-30-2015, 08:48 AM   #358
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The lens does suffer from some serious focus breathing:
09-30-2015, 10:25 AM - 1 Like   #359
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
As a Pentax camera user and Sigma lens user, I guess I'm in a niche of a niche.
Pentax is (often ) a smart choice for cameras.
Sigma is (often) a smart choice for lenses.

Are you wondering whether smart people are a minority within a minority?
09-30-2015, 10:43 AM - 1 Like   #360
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Pentax is (often ) a smart choice for cameras.
Sigma is (often) a smart choice for lenses.

Are you wondering whether smart people are a minority within a minority?
As someone who is always trying to stretch their hobby dollar as far as possible, I find Pentax to be the best value in camera bodies. More features and quality, for less money than the competition. Probably due to their underdog status, they've had to give people more, for less.

I've said it before, but I see Sigma as occupying a similar role, but in the lens industry. To me, they are to lenses what Pentax is to bodies...the value leader. They are the underdog compared to Canon and Nikon, so they seem to be trying to give buyers more, for less. So in my mind, Pentax bodies and Sigma lenses are a natural fit.
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