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10-06-2015, 05:03 PM - 1 Like   #451
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacu Quote
I think the price is good for a lens, with official support, regardless of it's origins. The compartibility with third party lenses is a bit of a gamble, something lost to sigma afficionados some times. A third party lens should always be cheaper because of that risk.
You pay 70% more than the same lense without support... That paying a lot for it except that for the current mount you don't have that many alternatives.

But there still the 28-75 from tamron for arround 300€...

So 1300€ maybe if the lense is really great and better than the tamron that is asking 750€ only on other mounts.

But I suppose the lense will trade new for arround 1000$ after some time. We just need to wait a bit... As usual the opening price is to suck money from people that need to have the thing NOW.

10-06-2015, 05:21 PM   #452
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacu Quote
Sorry for being a little naive, if you got an 70-300 then what 's the fuzz with a smaller camera.
Practrically the K-30 is thicker than manual SLRs but also is narrower, last time I looked a camera only Pentax pancakes like DA 40mm f2.8 manage to be like a body cup. Every lenses will protude more than the grip in K-30.
My Praktica with Pentacon 50mm f1.8 is bigger and heavier than my K-30 with DA 35 f.24.
Most of the time I use a smaller lens, so the feel of the camera with a smaller lens is my primary interest; longer lens is relevant only in that the combination needs to feel OK to me. My Super Program felt light and well-balanced with it's 50mm lens, and OK with a longer lens mounted. The K-30 feels awkward and clunky regardless of which lens is mounted, or even if nothing is mounted on it. I'm not really picking on the K-30 - every modern DSLR I've picked up has felt awkward and clunky compared to the Super Program. I almost bought a Praktica many years ago because of the price, but it felt much larger / bulkier / clunkier than the competing Japanese models, such as the Pentax. That was many years ago, but my memory is that the Praktica felt more like a K-30 than like the Super Program.
10-06-2015, 05:45 PM   #453
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Most of the time I use a smaller lens, so the feel of the camera with a smaller lens is my primary interest; longer lens is relevant only in that the combination needs to feel OK to me. My Super Program felt light and well-balanced with it's 50mm lens, and OK with a longer lens mounted. The K-30 feels awkward and clunky regardless of which lens is mounted, or even if nothing is mounted on it. I'm not really picking on the K-30 - every modern DSLR I've picked up has felt awkward and clunky compared to the Super Program. I almost bought a Praktica many years ago because of the price, but it felt much larger / bulkier / clunkier than the competing Japanese models, such as the Pentax. That was many years ago, but my memory is that the Praktica felt more like a K-30 than like the Super Program.

Maybe it is where the center of gravity is I don't know for sure. But I still think that K-30 is one of the more ergonomic cameras outhere at that price point. My personal view is that modern dslr are really mature and optimised products, and I like it. Maybe not innovative but the most practical way to get the job done for the most users. Photography is an art, but I see cameras as a tool first. Painters don't with appearence of their brushes but guitarist do fret most the time with their guitar appearence. Strange world.

---------- Post added 10-07-15 at 03:55 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
You pay 70% more than the same lense without support... That paying a lot for it except that for the current mount you don't have that many alternatives.

But there still the 28-75 from tamron for arround 300€...

So 1300€ maybe if the lense is really great and better than the tamron that is asking 750€ only on other mounts.

But I suppose the lense will trade new for arround 1000$ after some time. We just need to wait a bit... As usual the opening price is to suck money from people that need to have the thing NOW.
I compaired the price of Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 DI VC USD with it in the same store.

I have also seen nikon users crying that Nikon sabotaged sigma lenses in some cases, well nikon is not obliged to test others companies products if they are compartible with their updates.

I have bought an tamron 10-24 and tamron 17-50 for pentax knowing the risks, for the price difference. But I also know there is a chance to have some expensive paperweights down the road.

If some people have more disposable money than others or they like fewer risks, I suggest to accept reality. People can be more informed than they seem to be.

Last edited by pacu; 10-06-2015 at 05:56 PM.
10-06-2015, 05:58 PM   #454
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacu Quote
Maybe it is where the center of gravity is I don't know for sure. But I still think that K-30 is one of the more ergonomic cameras outhere at that price point. My personal view is that modern dslr are really mature and optimised products, and I like it. Maybe not innovative but the most practical way to get the job done for the most users. Photography is an art, but I see cameras as a tool first. Painters don't with appearence of their brushes but guitarist do fret most the time with their guitar appearance. Strange world.
If you reread my words you'll see that my issues are more about feel than about appearance.

10-06-2015, 06:11 PM   #455
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When I see a chinese manufacturer offering a complete system at a lower price point, I will say then see they overcharge us. But more or less even with Samsung you get similar performance at similar price, and a slightly different feature set. There is a reason third party lenses sell for less.
Every company charges what it can, lower price for a notable risk is a fair bargain.

Until Pentax closes I see a lot of people saying the mantra of doom while other companies come and go and these people seem not to even register this fact.
10-06-2015, 06:23 PM - 2 Likes   #456
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Ya, I've been having people shove their Nikons and Canons in my face for 50 years now. When pentax came out with the spotmatic, a fellow photo arts student made me learn how easy to expose with his canon, that had a funny little gadget attached to the shutter release button that had a spot meter in it. As you turned the dial on the gadget it rotated the shutter speed dial to help set your exposure. It was so clunky I ended up thinking "why would anyone mess with that." But, he loved Canon, so that was that, and he made it work. The "Pentax is doomed" crowd don't understand that mentality. They all believe, that there is some feature that other cameras have, that Pentax doesn't that is worth switching for, and that there is nothing Pentax offers that they won't miss.

The other great conceit is that folks think they represent everyone. They think, they switched for a reason and that everyone else would if they just understood.The concept that some of us might be ahead of them, and still not switch, or that we see their reasons for switching as a sign they never learned to use their camera, never occurs to them.I guess they think folks like myself are going to switch to Nikon or Canon after 50 years, because they never learned to manually focus a camera and want the camera to do everything for them. That falls right in line with the current crop comparing their D750s to a K-5. Well, ya, if you compare a camera to a camera 3 years older, the newer one is probably going to be more technically advanced... duh.

People like me used to set up our shots and take good images before AF and AE. We aren't impressed by the whining and crying about poor AE and poor AF. People are complaining about frills. Any photographer worth his salt 40 years ago would be embarrassed to have the whining and crying you here all the time these days, about things that don't actually affect either your ability to take pictures or IQ.


Folks like myself just yawn. You have to understand , I've heard people put down Pentax for 50 years, and the company just keeps on chugging. Rarely the head of the class, but always in the ball park. I usually pronounce "Pentax is doomed." because generally it slows down the insanity.

Last edited by normhead; 10-06-2015 at 06:39 PM.
10-06-2015, 06:37 PM   #457
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
If you reread my words you'll see that my issues are more about feel than about appearance.
The mindset is crusial to the final resault. I say it because I have handled K-30 and other cameras and I don't see something extra ordinary weird behaviour.

For the record, I always use the left hand to lift the center of gravity of the lens-camera combo (by feeling I don't intent to publish papers) and the right hand to fine adjust where this polarising contraption is pointing.
It works wonders for me, your mileage may vary. I got some web usable photos at 300mm at 1/30 of sencond, so I know it works for me the grip and SR.

I hope that you will find the perfect camera for your needs if you allready didn't. But I remain a satisfied customer of Pentax (something rare in this forum) therefore I would prefer to keep the ergonomics the same and the dissatisfied people move to other allready excisting camera systems that cover their needs.

offtopic
I feel that in this point that the harsh language I used in judging Sony is only justified in the context of the mirrorless evangelism, which is becoming a bit long in the tooth.
Sony has the a99 which I found its a nice camera despite the evf, yet people did not give it a chance, but sony a7R ? Ah the best thing ever. Well I don't see it. And I don't care as long as it is not the only game in town.
10-06-2015, 06:55 PM   #458
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacu Quote
The mindset is crucial to the final result. I say it because I have handled K-30 and other cameras and I don't see something extra ordinary weird behaviour.

For the record, I always use the left hand to lift the center of gravity of the lens-camera combo (by feeling I don't intent to publish papers) and the right hand to fine adjust where this polarizing contraption is pointing.
It works wonders for me, your mileage may vary. I got some web usable photos at 300mm at 1/30 of sencond, so I know it works for me the grip and SR.
That is exactly how I do it. It worked for a Super Program and it works for the K-30.

QuoteOriginally posted by pacu Quote
I hope that you will find the perfect camera for your needs if you already didn't. But I remain a satisfied customer of Pentax (something rare in this forum) therefore I would prefer to keep the ergonomics the same and the dissatisfied people move to other allready excisting camera systems that cover their needs.
I recently switched back to Pentax after a 20 year visit to Canon-ville. This discussion has been totally unnecessary from my point-of-view. I simply said I would like a smaller camera. I should be able to have that desire. Maybe Pentax will even provide the camera.

10-06-2015, 07:07 PM - 1 Like   #459
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The title of a Shakespeare comedy comes to mind here...
10-06-2015, 07:51 PM   #460
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Ya, I've been having people shove their Nikons and Canons in my face for 50 years now. When pentax came out with the spotmatic, a fellow photo arts student made me learn how easy to expose with his canon, that had a funny little gadget attached to the shutter release button that had a spot meter in it. As you turned the dial on the gadget it rotated the shutter speed dial to help set your exposure. It was so clunky I ended up thinking "why would anyone mess with that." But, he loved Canon, so that was that, and he made it work. The "Pentax is doomed" crowd don't understand that mentality. They all believe, that there is some feature that other cameras have, that Pentax doesn't that is worth switching for, and that there is nothing Pentax offers that they won't miss. The other great conceit is that folks think they represent everyone. They think, they switched for a reason and that everyone else would if they just understood.The concept that some of us might be ahead of them, and still not switch, or that we see their reasons for switching as a sign they never learned to use their camera, never occurs to them.I guess they think folks like myself are going to switch to Nikon or Canon after 50 years, because they never learned to manually focus a camera and want the camera to do everything for them. That falls right in line with the current crop comparing their D750s to a K-5. Well, ya, if you compare a camera to a camera 3 years older, the newer one is probably going to be more technically advanced... duh. People like me used to set up our shots and take good images before AF and AE. We aren't impressed by the whining and crying about poor AE and poor AF. People are complaining about frills. Any photographer worth his salt 40 years ago would be embarrassed to have the whining and crying you here all the time these days, about things that don't actually affect either your ability to take pictures or IQ. Folks like myself just yawn. You have to understand , I've heard people put down Pentax for 50 years, and the company just keeps on chugging. Rarely the head of the class, but always in the ball park. I usually pronounce "Pentax is doomed." because generally it slows down the insanity.
You could interchange brand names in your text and post it in Canon or Nikon forum. Nikon folks complaining about Nikon and switching to Canon and Canon folks complaining about Canon and switching to Nikon , or Fuji XT. The good thing about switching is it makes more money for the camera industry. It's like buying and selling in the stock market: the stock broker always gets his money from transaction fees every time, no matter if the stock prices are going up or down, and so for the broken, the more market agitation the better....so the market analysts are issuing moody prediction, one day positive, then negative the next day etc...
10-07-2015, 12:09 AM   #461
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Ya, I've been having people shove their Nikons and Canons in my face for 50 years now. When pentax came out with the spotmatic, a fellow photo arts student made me learn how easy to expose with his canon, that had a funny little gadget attached to the shutter release button that had a spot meter in it. As you turned the dial on the gadget it rotated the shutter speed dial to help set your exposure. It was so clunky I ended up thinking "why would anyone mess with that." But, he loved Canon, so that was that, and he made it work. The "Pentax is doomed" crowd don't understand that mentality. They all believe, that there is some feature that other cameras have, that Pentax doesn't that is worth switching for, and that there is nothing Pentax offers that they won't miss.

The other great conceit is that folks think they represent everyone. They think, they switched for a reason and that everyone else would if they just understood.The concept that some of us might be ahead of them, and still not switch, or that we see their reasons for switching as a sign they never learned to use their camera, never occurs to them.I guess they think folks like myself are going to switch to Nikon or Canon after 50 years, because they never learned to manually focus a camera and want the camera to do everything for them. That falls right in line with the current crop comparing their D750s to a K-5. Well, ya, if you compare a camera to a camera 3 years older, the newer one is probably going to be more technically advanced... duh.

People like me used to set up our shots and take good images before AF and AE. We aren't impressed by the whining and crying about poor AE and poor AF. People are complaining about frills. Any photographer worth his salt 40 years ago would be embarrassed to have the whining and crying you here all the time these days, about things that don't actually affect either your ability to take pictures or IQ.


Folks like myself just yawn. You have to understand , I've heard people put down Pentax for 50 years, and the company just keeps on chugging. Rarely the head of the class, but always in the ball park. I usually pronounce "Pentax is doomed." because generally it slows down the insanity.
When I was young, I was going to school by foot. Now I have a car to go to work... I could say that I don't mind when my car isn't working because I can let it on the side and just have a walk. Still if this happen too often, I'll buy a new car and complain about it reliability

Sure I still know how to walk... But that's not really the point.

To me you can master MF and still want great AF. Depend who you are. You could also have reduced eyesight 40 years later and want the camera to do it for you. Or you want to take the photos faster or to take more difficult subjects. After all you paid for the feature: you could expect for the feature to actually work.

Not to say that AF isn't great in a K3, but I perfectly get why you'd buy the brand/model you think is good for your requirements and that we are all different. I would not put shame on people wanting their camera to actually have great AF experience.
10-07-2015, 08:01 AM   #462
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
When I was young, I was going to school by foot. Now I have a car to go to work... I could say that I don't mind when my car isn't working because I can let it on the side and just have a walk. Still if this happen too often, I'll buy a new car and complain about it reliability

Sure I still know how to walk... But that's not really the point.

To me you can master MF and still want great AF. Depend who you are. You could also have reduced eyesight 40 years later and want the camera to do it for you. Or you want to take the photos faster or to take more difficult subjects. After all you paid for the feature: you could expect for the feature to actually work.

Not to say that AF isn't great in a K3, but I perfectly get why you'd buy the brand/model you think is good for your requirements and that we are all different. I would not put shame on people wanting their camera to actually have great AF experience.
There was nothing about putting shame on anybody in my post.

It was more a plea to stop people from going on about how great their camera is and how much better it is from mine. Basic politeness. If I want to know how great your camera is, I'll ask. I don't care if you have the million dollar focus before you point the camera every shot perfect camera from the future, if I'm happy with what I have , I don't care, and don't want to know.

SO ya, there is shame in constantly pointing out how great your physical belongings are. Be they cameras cars or whatever. It takes a certain degree of ignorance to do that.
10-07-2015, 10:01 AM   #463
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
There was nothing about putting shame on anybody in my post.

It was more a plea to stop people from going on about how great their camera is and how much better it is from mine. Basic politeness. If I want to know how great your camera is, I'll ask. I don't care if you have the million dollar focus before you point the camera every shot perfect camera from the future, if I'm happy with what I have , I don't care, and don't want to know.

SO ya, there is shame in constantly pointing out how great your physical belongings are. Be they cameras cars or whatever. It takes a certain degree of ignorance to do that.
But does it really happen? Never happened to me in real life that somebody said that my gear was not great. People tend to not care. Sure in forum people explain to you if you don't have the latest Sony or Canon you can't even manage to get the most basic shoots, but theses guys are troll that use the internet as a playground, no more.

I have seen people complaining that I didn't have zoom when they tried the camera, other saying it was too heavy. Some didn't knew how to use the OVF. Honestly I don't take this kind of stuff as criticism, but more that we don't have same practice/expectations. If you are not familiar with the gear, you'll always go into issues.

I didn't got people saying that my camera wasn't really fit, or that because of it I couldn't take great photos. In practice it is more the contrary; people tend to consider I take great photo and are asking for it. Many are thinkings that the portraitures shoot I make are really better that what they see usually. One guy said that the wedding pictures I took for a friend are better than what he got by paying for it for example.

Sure I do not discuss much with pros outside of this forum, but I would expect a pro to have more knowledge, used a greater variety of gear and to be so even more open minded on the subject, but maybe I'am too optimistic because I didn't get any bad experience.

Honestly even if you are shooting with 50 year old film camera and are happy with it, I don't get what could be a legitimate complain from other pros or friends. That's your choice, your problem, not their. Your clients could complain, but only if you don't deliver...

Last edited by Nicolas06; 10-07-2015 at 10:17 AM.
10-07-2015, 10:59 AM   #464
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QuoteQuote:
But does it really happen? Never happened to me in real life that somebody said that my gear was not great. People tend to not care. Sure in forum people explain to you if you don't have the latest Sony or Canon you can't even manage to get the most basic shoots, but theses guys are troll that use the internet as a playground, no more.
So you say it does't happen, by calling everyone who does it trolls... so they don't count?
An interesting approach to the issue.
I'm undefeated in tennis because the only guys who beat me were hot dog show offs and they don't count, is that how it works? I think I can go with this.
10-07-2015, 12:12 PM   #465
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So you say it does't happen, by calling everyone who does it trolls... so they don't count?
An interesting approach to the issue.
I'm undefeated in tennis because the only guys who beat me were hot dog show offs and they don't count, is that how it works? I think I can go with this.
So this is your issue? People on the internet that say your brand isn't good enough? Really why do you care? You'll find people saying that whatever your actual gear, some complain it is not good.
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