New Day New Rumor FF Slide (no rice)

Kunzite · 10-16-2015, 12:28 PM

Ok... one of the things I don't want to do is to start serious "what if" discussions based on an obvious fake. Because it might impart the idea that fake can lead to good things. No, it's "garbage in, garbage out".

The idea of combining Composition Adjustment with Pixel Shift Resolution to increase the effective size of the captured image is not new. It has some merits - in theory - but in practice, it depends on how much you can move the sensor; because just adding a tiny border is not enough.
To reach 44x33mm - which is about the smallest digital medium format size - you'd need to move the sensor almost 1cm, horizontally and vertically. That, with no component (mirror box, mirrors, mount with it's ancillary equipment (e.g. aperture lever)...) interfering through mechanical vignetting. The K-mount was made for small format, and it's not the largest - can it support an unobstructed 44x33mm image? I doubt it; the difference is not small.

Actually 44x33mm is clearly larger than my ME Super's mirrorbox.

I'm quite sure we won't see it in the new camera.

6BQ5 · 10-16-2015, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

...

Actually 44x33mm is clearly larger than my ME Super's mirrorbox.

I'm quite sure we won't see it in the new camera.

Unless the upcoming FF has new a mirror box of some sort.

In the end, we just don't know. All we know is we're having some fun guessing.

Kunzite · 10-16-2015, 12:45 PM

Yes, a slightly larger mirror box is possible; however there are limits to such approach. The focusing screen (and thus the mirrors) can't be moved upwards. The bottom of the mirror box and thus the AF system might be moved downwards a bit, but is it enough? The mount has a fixed diameter, and there's the aperture lever sitting in the way.
Until a magical solution is presented, I'd rather trust my eyes and say that it can't be done.

**mattb123** · 10-16-2015, 12:49 PM

Or maybe it won't match a MF sized image but something in between? That could make it an attractive feature with less potential cannibalization of their 645D/Z customers. It could also get more 645 lenses in people's hands with the hope of them buying a body for them some time.

Again, not making a prediction, just wondering what if.

Kunzite · 10-16-2015, 12:57 PM

Without a significant improvement, why bother? Making the camera larger than necessary, cumbersome feature as you can't view the entire captured frame at once (only partially, and only in live view...
Sorry, but we'll have to settle for just 36-42MP with Pixel Shift Resolution

6BQ5 · 10-16-2015, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Yes, a slightly larger mirror box is possible; however there are limits to such approach. The focusing screen (and thus the mirrors) can't be moved upwards. The bottom of the mirror box and thus the AF system might be moved downwards a bit, but is it enough? The mount has a fixed diameter, and there's the aperture lever sitting in the way.
Until a magical solution is presented, I'd rather trust my eyes and say that it can't be done.

What if the mirror didn't move? It could be a variably translucent mirror and be fixed in position.

**mattb123** · 10-16-2015, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Without a significant improvement, why bother? Making the camera larger than necessary, cumbersome feature as you can't view the entire captured frame at once (only partially, and only in live view...
Sorry, but we'll have to settle for just 36-42MP with Pixel Shift Resolution

I could probably settle for that.

Kunzite · 10-16-2015, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by 6BQ5

What if the mirror didn't move? It could be a variably translucent mirror and be fixed in position.

The focusing screen will still have to stay in its position.

6BQ5 · 10-16-2015, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

The focusing screen will still have to stay in its position.

True. But what if ...

drougge · 10-16-2015, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

The focusing screen will still have to stay in its position.

Does it? If you move the mirror forward you should be able (and required) to move the focusing screen up.

(And if the mirror doesn't move you can move it forward.)

mee · 10-16-2015, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by 6BQ5

True. But what if ...

What if the camera comes with a gnome, that fits in the trunk/boot of your car, and pops out and sets up your lighting equipment whenever you push a button on the steering wheel (indicating you are getting out to take a photo).

I think this has as much potential to occur as to what you are currently suggesting.

**THoog** · 10-16-2015, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

If not, know that I'm a Nigerian prince and I want to share my wealth with you

Hey - you're that guy who sold me the Brooklyn Bridge! I never received my title, and I waited all night in that lousy pumpkin patch! ... Should I send more money?

infoomatic · 10-16-2015, 03:42 PM - **1 Like**

oh boy this is a bad fake ... cant believe some of us believed this stuff. when I ask my 10 year old nephew to make a ricoh-looking presentation he could do better

Kunzite · 10-16-2015, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by THoog

Hey - you're that guy who sold me the Brooklyn Bridge! I never received my title, and I waited all night in that lousy pumpkin patch! ... Should I send more money?

Sorry... there were some rust points so I decided to clean them and repaint the bridge before giving you the title. Unfortunately I'm out of paint, so please, do send more money

Originally posted by 6BQ5

True. But what if ...

I'm afraid I have to ask you to prove that it can be done, instead of endlessly attempt to prove you that it can't - for every idea you (or someone else) might have

Originally posted by drougge

Does it? If you move the mirror forward you should be able (and required) to move the focusing screen up.

(And if the mirror doesn't move you can move it forward.)

Oh, great. More conditions to satisfy in order to make it work.

In fact it's:
- having to use a fixed mirror (which will steal light from the imaging sensor, unless they manage to implement the variable transmission mirror idea).
- the 'pellicle' mirror might introduce defects in the resulting image (IIRC Sony SLTs had such issues).
- the fixed mirror frame would introduce mechanical vignetting, and a resign where you could easily remove the mirror (for cleaning the sensor) requires such a frame. And it puts restrictions on the mirror's size.
- no secondary mirror to send light to a dedicated AF system, which means no dedicated AF system. Bye-bye excellent low-light AF capabilities.
- viewfinder prism and everything around it moved forward, viewfinder optics extended
And it still won't be enough.

btnapa · 10-16-2015, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

The 645 to K-mount adapter was available for decades.

Autofocus and fully compatible? I do have the manual adapter and i have used my manual and autofocus 645 lenses with my k3 with great results but all in manual mode.

10-16-2015, 03:48 PM	#119
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by THoog Hey - you're that guy who sold me the Brooklyn Bridge! I never received my title, and I waited all night in that lousy pumpkin patch! ... Should I send more money? Sorry... there were some rust points so I decided to clean them and repaint the bridge before giving you the title. Unfortunately I'm out of paint, so please, do send more money Originally posted by 6BQ5 True. But what if ... I'm afraid I have to ask you to prove that it can be done, instead of endlessly attempt to prove you that it can't - for every idea you (or someone else) might have Originally posted by drougge Does it? If you move the mirror forward you should be able (and required) to move the focusing screen up. (And if the mirror doesn't move you can move it forward.) Oh, great. More conditions to satisfy in order to make it work. In fact it's: - having to use a fixed mirror (which will steal light from the imaging sensor, unless they manage to implement the variable transmission mirror idea). - the 'pellicle' mirror might introduce defects in the resulting image (IIRC Sony SLTs had such issues). - the fixed mirror frame would introduce mechanical vignetting, and a resign where you could easily remove the mirror (for cleaning the sensor) requires such a frame. And it puts restrictions on the mirror's size. - no secondary mirror to send light to a dedicated AF system, which means no dedicated AF system. Bye-bye excellent low-light AF capabilities. - viewfinder prism and everything around it moved forward, viewfinder optics extended And it still won't be enough. Last edited by Kunzite; 10-16-2015 at 03:55 PM.

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10-16-2015, 12:28 PM	#106
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Ok... one of the things I don't want to do is to start serious "what if" discussions based on an obvious fake. Because it might impart the idea that fake can lead to good things. No, it's "garbage in, garbage out". The idea of combining Composition Adjustment with Pixel Shift Resolution to increase the effective size of the captured image is not new. It has some merits - in theory - but in practice, it depends on how much you can move the sensor; because just adding a tiny border is not enough. To reach 44x33mm - which is about the smallest digital medium format size - you'd need to move the sensor almost 1cm, horizontally and vertically. That, with no component (mirror box, mirrors, mount with it's ancillary equipment (e.g. aperture lever)...) interfering through mechanical vignetting. The K-mount was made for small format, and it's not the largest - can it support an unobstructed 44x33mm image? I doubt it; the difference is not small. Actually 44x33mm is clearly larger than my ME Super's mirrorbox. I'm quite sure we won't see it in the new camera.

10-16-2015, 12:37 PM	#107
6BQ5 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Nevada, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,348	Originally posted by Kunzite ... Actually 44x33mm is clearly larger than my ME Super's mirrorbox. I'm quite sure we won't see it in the new camera. Unless the upcoming FF has new a mirror box of some sort. In the end, we just don't know. All we know is we're having some fun guessing.

10-16-2015, 12:45 PM	#108
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Yes, a slightly larger mirror box is possible; however there are limits to such approach. The focusing screen (and thus the mirrors) can't be moved upwards. The bottom of the mirror box and thus the AF system might be moved downwards a bit, but is it enough? The mount has a fixed diameter, and there's the aperture lever sitting in the way. Until a magical solution is presented, I'd rather trust my eyes and say that it can't be done.

10-16-2015, 12:49 PM	#109
mattb123 Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Colorado High Country Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,872	Or maybe it won't match a MF sized image but something in between? That could make it an attractive feature with less potential cannibalization of their 645D/Z customers. It could also get more 645 lenses in people's hands with the hope of them buying a body for them some time. Again, not making a prediction, just wondering what if.

10-16-2015, 12:57 PM	#110
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Without a significant improvement, why bother? Making the camera larger than necessary, cumbersome feature as you can't view the entire captured frame at once (only partially, and only in live view... Sorry, but we'll have to settle for just 36-42MP with Pixel Shift Resolution

10-16-2015, 01:05 PM	#111
6BQ5 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Nevada, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,348	Originally posted by Kunzite Yes, a slightly larger mirror box is possible; however there are limits to such approach. The focusing screen (and thus the mirrors) can't be moved upwards. The bottom of the mirror box and thus the AF system might be moved downwards a bit, but is it enough? The mount has a fixed diameter, and there's the aperture lever sitting in the way. Until a magical solution is presented, I'd rather trust my eyes and say that it can't be done. What if the mirror didn't move? It could be a variably translucent mirror and be fixed in position.

10-16-2015, 01:10 PM	#112
mattb123 Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Colorado High Country Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,872	Originally posted by Kunzite Without a significant improvement, why bother? Making the camera larger than necessary, cumbersome feature as you can't view the entire captured frame at once (only partially, and only in live view... Sorry, but we'll have to settle for just 36-42MP with Pixel Shift Resolution I could probably settle for that.

10-16-2015, 02:36 PM	#113
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by 6BQ5 What if the mirror didn't move? It could be a variably translucent mirror and be fixed in position. The focusing screen will still have to stay in its position.

10-16-2015, 02:39 PM	#114
6BQ5 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Nevada, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,348	Originally posted by Kunzite The focusing screen will still have to stay in its position. True. But what if ...

10-16-2015, 03:09 PM	#115
drougge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Malmö Photos: Gallery Posts: 787	Originally posted by Kunzite The focusing screen will still have to stay in its position. Does it? If you move the mirror forward you should be able (and required) to move the focusing screen up. (And if the mirror doesn't move you can move it forward.)

10-16-2015, 03:16 PM	#116
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Originally posted by 6BQ5 True. But what if ... What if the camera comes with a gnome, that fits in the trunk/boot of your car, and pops out and sets up your lighting equipment whenever you push a button on the steering wheel (indicating you are getting out to take a photo). I think this has as much potential to occur as to what you are currently suggesting.

10-16-2015, 03:17 PM	#117
THoog Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: North Carolina Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,685	Originally posted by Kunzite If not, know that I'm a Nigerian prince and I want to share my wealth with you Hey - you're that guy who sold me the Brooklyn Bridge! I never received my title, and I waited all night in that lousy pumpkin patch! ... Should I send more money?

10-16-2015, 03:42 PM - 1 Like	#118
infoomatic Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Austria Photos: Gallery Posts: 255	oh boy this is a bad fake ... cant believe some of us believed this stuff. when I ask my 10 year old nephew to make a ricoh-looking presentation he could do better

10-16-2015, 06:40 PM	#120
btnapa Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,615	Originally posted by Kunzite The 645 to K-mount adapter was available for decades. Autofocus and fully compatible? I do have the manual adapter and i have used my manual and autofocus 645 lenses with my k3 with great results but all in manual mode.