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10-30-2015, 07:56 AM - 1 Like   #16
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The only real answer to figures which cannot be broken out of a general figure for a larger division is "Don't know". We don't know. Perhaps we can surmise that if Ricoh's performance is in line with the industry average, then sales are down generally but high-end cameras are doing not too shabbily at all. How that affects "profit" when so many things may or may not be taken into account - expenditure on plant and R&D, write downs, overheads, etc, etc - is something else we don't know. I sometimes wonder whether Ricoh choose to bury their camera division's figures like this because they'd prefer them to remain opaque to investors, some of whom were none too keen on this venture into digital photography to begin with.

The only thing that matters is how Ricoh think they are doing compared to whatever goals they have set. So many camera brands are owned by giant combines and, again, we don't know how committed those parent boards are to the photography biz. Maybe they are, maybe next week they'll announce they are switching to a venture in lawnmowers or coffee machines. We don't know.


Last edited by mecrox; 10-30-2015 at 08:58 AM.
10-30-2015, 07:59 AM   #17
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You guys do not understand financial analysis:
1) 711.3 billion is the Office Imaging sales, while Other segment operating profit (including Pentax) was all of 6.1 billion on 53.7 billion of sales. Pentax is a pimple on the butt of Ricoh's total sales and earnings.
2) You need to spreadsheet several years of data and adjust the numbers for accounting changes to see trends. But there is really no need to do this in regards to the photo segment. Why? Because industry data says it all: The photo market is in a huge decline due to the smartphone. The inflection point was 3-4 years ago. It is over. The smartphone is taking over the world. Apple has enough cash to buy out Nikon by writing a check. It won't because it can get a much higher ROR doing other things, e.g. an Apple car. The smartphone is the future of photography.
3) Canikon has greater financial issues than Ricoh. Why? Ricoh is less dependent upon photography for its cash flow. Canon and Nikon must continue to find growth through acquisitions. Ricoh doesn't have to panic.
4) Dontworryaboutit. There will be a FF. Outside of sports, the DSLR will likely be a dinosaur someday, anyway. At least Ricoh is financially stable.
5) I'll either get the FF or upgrade to the K-3 when used ones go below $450 (after the FF is released). It could be the last DSLR I purchase. At some point soon, perhaps in 4 years, my smartphone will snap into a case that will give me DSLR-like performance. Yeah, that is available now, but it will take a few years to get it right.
6) Ricoh's ROE and ROA are dropping. WTH, it is still not going out of business anytime soon.

Last edited by quant2325; 10-30-2015 at 08:23 AM.
10-30-2015, 08:02 AM   #18
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Are you sure the part of the camera market Pentax and Ricoh are in is in decline because of the smartphones? I'm not.
10-30-2015, 08:15 AM   #19
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All looks good to me. Ricoh doesn't over produce and has found segments of the market that they can target and skim off easier profits, unlike Nikon and Canon who have to over produce (apparently) camera models for each segment.

10-30-2015, 08:34 AM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
All looks good to me. Ricoh doesn't over produce and has found segments of the market that they can target and skim off easier profits, unlike Nikon and Canon who have to over produce (apparently) camera models for each segment.
Canon and Nikon have a fully-developed consumerist business model that requires a high throughput of products price- and feature- targeted to numerous distribution channels. Paying a comparatively large, integrated global sales and support network, advertising in multiple media and constantly brand-marketing requires a high unit volume; price competition on top of high peripheral (non-manufacturing) costs results in a low profit margin. That's OK when Gross Revenue is massive and rapidly rising (2004-2014) but those costs don't decline when Revenue declines. Suddenly Nikon is struggling to actually survive and Canon is certainly less profitable.

Ricoh doesn't have this particular problem right now. If they did all the marketing things people here want them to do they would have this problem -

Ricoh's problem is one of not having the capacity to deal with success like the 645z (or surprises like the K-3II issues) without delaying other products.
10-30-2015, 09:22 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
New figures are publishes for the half year result of Ricoh. In it also some figures for the camera division.

https://www.ricoh.com/IR/

This sheet shows some of it.
https://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/28/q2_report.pdf

It isn't easy to see how the camera's do, since they are part of the "other" also contains g some other activity's. It looks like the fall in sales is around -20 % And that is big. Over the half year the result is less down then the last three months, so sales are declining faster.

Maybe someone can dive into this.

My explanation to this growing declining is that the sales are lowering over time since the full-frame was anounced and that push g the inventory into the sales channels is slowing down rapidly. This will probably be so until the full frame arrives in spring.
How do you figure that camera sales are down 20%?

Thanks.
10-30-2015, 09:25 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Are you sure the part of the camera market Pentax and Ricoh are in is in decline because of the smartphones? I'm not.
I am certain that point-and-shoot and compact camera markets are diving ("decline" understates the case) because of smartphones.
We have two twenty-something daughters. Back when they were young, receiving a point-and-shoot (film) camera from Daddy on the Christmas when you were eight was almost part of of the growing-up process.
Now, they use their smartphones. As a part-time college teacher, I see the same devotion to smartphone photography on the part of the slightly-younger group.
I have friends who had a K-1000 thirty years ago, but switched to point-and-shoot when digital cameras came out, and most of them now seem to be using smartphones.

I cannot guarantee that all of this is cutting into Pentax's business, but it is cutting into someone's business, and it is causing a seismic shift in Pentax's environment.
10-30-2015, 10:13 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by bladerunner6 Quote
How do you figure that camera sales are down 20%?

Thanks.
The overseas activity's are probably just Camera business. They are down over 20%. The Japanese camera business is bigger then the rest, so that makes a Chuck out of domestic sales. The Japanese market isn't so good this year. So that made to my conclusions that sales are down 20%.

I would love to see some real numbers.

10-30-2015, 10:20 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
The overseas activity's are probably just Camera business. They are down over 20%. The Japanese camera business is bigger then the rest, so that makes a Chuck out of domestic sales. The Japanese market isn't so good this year. So that made to my conclusions that sales are down 20%.

I would love to see some real numbers.
Why do we think that overseas activities are only camera business?
10-30-2015, 10:30 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Why do we think that overseas activities are only camera business?
There where some things like leasing in it. Some times it changes over time what's in others. Ricoh being a Japanese companie putting their small things into others and don't have those businesses overseas.

If there are also other businesses in that group next to camera sales, then they really sell not that much camera's. On a year the business for overseas now is 100 million dollar making out like half of the camera business. If you cut that in smaller particles it's getting real small.
10-30-2015, 10:31 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
The overseas activity's are probably just Camera business. They are down over 20%. The Japanese camera business is bigger then the rest, so that makes a Chuck out of domestic sales. The Japanese market isn't so good this year. So that made to my conclusions that sales are down 20%.

I would love to see some real numbers.
I too would love to see exact numbers on the camera business, but where do you see the 20% number?
10-30-2015, 10:34 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by bladerunner6 Quote
I too would love to see exact numbers on the camera business, but where do you see the 20% number?
Three months report on page 21.
10-30-2015, 10:44 AM   #28
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Like most other conversations on this Forum we don't know anything substantive and specific to Ricoh. Unless we're Ricoh very Senior Management or an investment banker.

Smartphones have nearly completely replaced PnS digital cameras in just 5 years, especially among consumers under 40. Digital ILC's are also in decline, but for different reasons - ILC USERS and first-time consumers converted to digital and replaced their first body with a better one from 2005-2013, then the rate of incremental improvement eroded replacement sales; children grew up; Flickr lost its allure; China and other emerging markets' torrid growth slowed, etc. dSLR sales have slowed dramatically the last 24 months in large measure because enthusiast wealthy consumers bought other toys - GoPros, drones, tablets - and at the margin prefer to pay debt rather than replace a perfectly fine ILC with an only marginally better new one.

In large measure phone camera users wouldn't have bought an ILC anyway. That's why Q and GR, Nikon 1 and like small cameras were supposed to be attractive

I predict the base unit volume for ILC's is the 2004 area, before the big conversion. We're only half way there. Think about that. Nikon is in serious trouble.
10-30-2015, 10:58 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
The overseas activity's are probably just Camera business. They are down over 20%.
Ron, did you not read p8?

"Sales in the Other segment decreased by 11.4% as compared to the previous corresponding period, to 53.7 billion due to sale of clothing
business and so on.

As a result of increased lease profit and so on, operating profit in the Other segment increased significantly as compared

to the previous corresponding period, to 1.3 billion."
10-30-2015, 11:02 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Three months report on page 21.
I see other at -15.5%.
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