Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
11-02-2015, 08:47 AM   #16
Senior Member




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Surrey
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 176
one thing that might come to play is that nowadays generation of mobile shooters have never used or needed a viewfinder and when upgrading to DSLR it won't be their priority to have one. So the traditional Pentax advantage goes unnoticed and MILC will have all they ever knew was important for photography...

11-02-2015, 08:47 AM - 1 Like   #17
Site Supporter
boriscleto's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Liverpool, NY
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 12,560
All those DSLRs, and not one of them with APS-H.
11-02-2015, 08:51 AM   #18
Pentaxian
bertwert's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Golden, BC
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,302
I am sure DSLR's will live on for a long time, probably longer than anyone one this forum is going to live to see.
Sure some people may hate them because they love one mirrorless model.
There are some places a compact camera is nicer.
But DSLRs will live on.
I prefer a heavier camera as well - some of those mirrorless are too small (Maybe not the new Leica...)
People who have built up big lens collections will want to keep using them on a native system.
Today DSLRs still have better IQ than many mirrorless, take a K-50 and try find a camera with better IQ for the same price!

DSLRs won't ever die out completely until a new sort of SLR camera comes around (film to digital to ?).

Long live the DSLR!
11-02-2015, 08:56 AM   #19
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,841
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
So there is one mysterie for me in these figures.

Just looking at a few popular camera's.....

Nikon D750 cost 1859 dollar and in my country it's 2150 dollar on current rates.
Canon 7D ii cost 1469 dollar and in my country it's 1653 dollar.
Pentax K-3ii cost 897 dollar and in my country it's 1102 dollar.

And still when I look at shipping price for dslr the Amerika's pay 34 % more for the inventory then Europe!
Are you comparing before-tax U.S. prices with VAT-encumbered (21% where you live) E.U. ones?

11-02-2015, 09:00 AM - 1 Like   #20
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2012
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,728
MILCs will do better when their product lineup gets better. Right now, the whole product concept is dominated by large sensor P&S cameras (Oly EPLs and the smaller Pannys) that happen to have removable lenses that no one will remove and overpriced "DSLR-like" cameras (XT-1, E-M1). More important, Nikon and, for the most part, Canon aren't participating in this segment. In a simplistic sense, the world will buy what Canon sells with Nikon trailing behind them. When those two come out with serious MILC lines that are priced right (don't know if they will), MILCs will then and probably only then start taking a bigger slice of the ILC pie.

To get the best handle on the future share of MILCs, one probably has to go snooping around forums dedicated to Canon rumors.
11-02-2015, 09:08 AM   #21
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 24,735
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
On the other hand, mirrorless is just hitting that point where the technology is maturing. Up till now there has been reason to update your mirrorless with each cycle, but I think people are going to hold on to their mirrorless longer, meaning that their sales will plateau as well.
This is what I don't understand with this line of thought.

It assumes that some mirrorless camera will at some point lead in some technical category and thus become relevant. That is simply completely erroneous. Nikon and Canon for example are the leaders in tracking AF. They are two companies who have put years into developing those systems. There is absolutely no guarantee that any other camera company will ever catch up with them in those fields. Pentax swore to do better AF a few years ago. And they have, but there goal of matching Nikon of Canon are still way out of reach. Most of us buy our cameras based on some performance feature. Mirrorless is not a performance feature. That's why I suggested it's a fad. Fads get old and wear off, until the next fad comes along. Many Pentax guys went to Sony AR to use their old lenses in the format for which they were designed. When the Pentax FF come out Sony will lose those guys. A Pentax FF is so much ahed of an A7 on so many levels. So, whether the MILC market is set to grow or is about to take a nosedive, is a matter of speculation.

From my perspective, the idea of MILC dying altogether in the performance end of the market inhabited largely by DSLRs is just as likely as them growing in the performance end of the market. Making assumptions like that Sony won't tank the whole A7 line-up in a few years, is simply not sound. Low end mirrorless will always be with us, in the form of point and shoots etc. High performance MILCs have yet to establish anything resembling what could be considered a permanent foot hold in the high performance market.

As much as there is a possibility that MILC will continue to grow, there is the possibility it will tank and disappear completely from the high performance/professional market.
11-02-2015, 09:18 AM   #22
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Southern Indiana
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 15,435
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
This is what I don't understand with this line of thought.

It assumes that some mirrorless camera will at some point lead in some technical category and thus become relevant. That is simply completely erroneous. Nikon and Canon for example are the leaders in tracking AF. They are two companies who have put years into developing those systems. There is absolutely no guarantee that any other camera company will ever catch up with them in those fields. Pentax swore to do better AF a few years ago. And they have, but there goal of matching Nikon of Canon are still way out of reach. Most of us buy our cameras based on some performance feature. Mirrorless is not a performance feature. That's why I suggested it's a fad. Fads get old and wear off, until the next fad comes along. Many Pentax guys went to Sony AR to use their old lenses in the format for which they were designed. When the Pentax FF come out Sony will lose those guys. A Pentax FF is so much ahed of an A7 on so many levels. So, whether the MILC market is set to grow or is about to take a nosedive, is a matter of speculation.

From my perspective, the idea of MILC dying altogether in the performance end of the market inhabited largely by DSLRs is just as likely as them growing in the performance end of the market. Making assumptions like that Sony won't tank the whole A7 line-up in a few years, is simply not sound. Low end mirrorless will always be with us, in the form of point and shoots etc. High performance MILCs have yet to establish anything resembling what could be considered a permanent foot hold in the high performance market.

As much as there is a possibility that MILC will continue to grow, there is the possibility it will tank and disappear completely from the high performance/professional market.
Everything I have read about the A6000 and the A7r II says that these cameras do not take a back seat to SLRs when it comes to auto focus and tracking. Biggest issues probably have more to do with the EVF black out while taking photos, but surely that is fixable in the future.

I would say that we are pretty far from mirrorless cameras being the go-to camera for wildlife and sports photographers, but the same is true for Pentax cameras and that doesn't stop me from recommending them to others who aren't interested in those types of photography.

Mirrorless cameras are actually more similar than different when it comes to SLRs. Ergonomically, they do best when they mimic classic SLR design. The goal of good EVFs is to be as close to a high quality OVF as possible, albeit with some extra helps added in. The goal with PDAF on the sensor is to achieve similar results with auto focus to SLR performance.
11-02-2015, 09:24 AM   #23
Senior Member




Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 287
I think there is nothing to worry about. We are years away from the demise of optical viewfinders - if ever. Meanwhile, MILC is good for you, at least as an alternative.

11-02-2015, 09:43 AM - 1 Like   #24
Site Supporter
boriscleto's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Liverpool, NY
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 12,560
QuoteOriginally posted by eyeswideshut Quote
I think there is nothing to worry about. We are years away from the demise of optical viewfinders - if ever. Meanwhile, MILC is good for you, at least as an alternative.
But EVF is just a few years away from being as good as OVF. I've been hearing this since I joined this forum in 2009...
11-02-2015, 09:47 AM   #25
Senior Member




Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 287
QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
But EVF is just a few years away from being as good as OVF. I've been hearing this since I joined this forum in 2009...
We're all adults, we make our choices. This is a question not really worth even arguing about. Which is better? You decide!
11-02-2015, 09:56 AM   #26
Pentaxian
bertwert's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Golden, BC
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,302
OVF is better until they come up with an EVF with same resolution as the sensor, hardly uses battery, and zero lag.
I definitely prefer to be able to compose shots with the camera off as well.

For a long time, the only EVF I would want would be an overlay over an OVF.
11-02-2015, 09:58 AM   #27
Pentaxian
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,013
It's quite hard to see why anyone should worry about this subject [surely you mean become insecure - ed]. Seriously, who care's a rodent's posterior what the next guy uses? He or she may even be a better photographer with a 6 mpx P&S. One month's figures tell us nothing. It's all about trends over quite long time frames and I don't notice all that many folks disputing the trends. Personally I like MILCs, and I don't think Canon or Nikon will be able to keep the lid on new technology disrupting their franchises for ever, not least because with each passing year it becomes harder and more costly for them to persuade a new generation of young people that only a DSLR is a "real camera" and only Canon and Nikon can provide it. But if the next guy doesn't agree that's absolutely fine When anyone looks at the final image, the last thing 99.99 per cent of folks will ask is whether the photographer used a DSLR (a rangefinder, a MILC, a view camera, whatever).
11-02-2015, 10:12 AM - 1 Like   #28
Pentaxian
ChristianRock's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Marietta, GA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,238
I'm just glad this thread went away from the DSLR bashing that looked like it was coming. I was amused at the MILC defender calling DSLR shooters stupid people who go around with their lens hoods on backwards, too dumb to be aware that their cell phones take better pictures.

That has been an usual line of attack from osv and other fanbooys: we DSLR users are too stupid to know better. And I'm sure they will come here to tell us shortly about how DSLRs still outsell MILCs by a wide margin, because most people are stupid.

( I should put a disclaimer here saying that there are quite a few people who use these expensive cameras as point and shoots in both camps, and there are advanced users in both camps. So the argument to me is moot. )
11-02-2015, 10:29 AM   #29
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,001
The key point is that at the point where technology actually renders an MILC superior or equal to a dSLR Pentax will have a competitive, interesting MILC in its catalog.

That might actually happen sooner than many of us think.

BTW, I read a research report over the weekend that alleges to have spotted a trend among large Japanese manufacturers repatriating their manufacturing to Japan as the Yen persistently declines. DK what that might mean for Ricohtax, but interesting.

Last edited by monochrome; 11-02-2015 at 11:42 AM.
11-02-2015, 10:33 AM   #30
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,841
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
It's quite hard to see why anyone should worry about this subject [surely you mean become insecure - ed]. Seriously, who care's a rodent's posterior what the next guy uses?
Some MILC fans seriously worry about people still using DSLRs (a certain forum's Open Talk section being a good example). They're constantly predicting DSLR's demise, explain how EVFs are so superior and how an instant return mirror (derogatorily named 'flappy mirror') is the worst thing you could possibly have in a camera.

If you want trends, the same CIPA document is presenting data for Jan-September 2015: the DSLR production was at 96.7% in units, and 104.9% in value compared to the same period in the previous year.

---------- Post added 02-11-15 at 07:38 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The key point is that at the point where technology actually renders an MILC superior or equal to a dSLR Pentax will have a competitive, interesting MILC in its catalog.

That might actually happen sooner than many of us think.
Unfortunately, few people have figured it out.
IMO:
+ there's no immediate need for such a MILC - and by that I mean every other major project (hint: FF) should be stopped to make room for it
+ the FF project, and strengthening the K-mount overall (APS-C and FF) is the most important thing which could be done right now. And maintaining 645, of course.
+ a new large sensor MILC system might be Ricoh Imaging's next major project (it would be added to, not substituting the current Ricoh/Pentax systems)
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
a7, af, auto focus, cipa statistics, data, dslr, dslrs, evf, ff, fujifilm, increase, lens, magnification, market, milc, milcs, normhead, ovf, pentax news, pentax rumors, people, production, project, september, september those dslrs, split, statistics for september, vs
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ebay: Fa* 600mm + K5 Silver Edition for those of you who just won the lottery mgbirder Pentax Price Watch 10 11-18-2014 08:18 PM
Mirror-less cameras hanging on to their sales better than DSLRs per CIPA philbaum Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 22 06-02-2014 09:57 AM
My *ist DS just won't die jhaji Pentax DSLR Discussion 4 04-12-2013 10:07 PM
Cityscape winter just won't let go.......... dcmsox2004 Post Your Photos! 6 03-01-2011 08:08 AM
CIPA Global Dslrs numbers for 2008 are out & forcasts 2009-2011 Samsungian Pentax News and Rumors 9 02-06-2009 11:32 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:27 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top