Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
11-17-2015, 11:44 AM   #121
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,093
QuoteQuote:
Simply put between a current 24mp aps-c and a 24mp FF a 400mm aps-c lens is going to transmit so close to the same quality image on both cameras. I'm not going to get into a brand war here because I like both brands. A6000 is far from a crippled camera read some reviews.
You've provided me with an image, why would I read reviews? If I don't want that image, all the reviews in the world don't make a bit of difference. Cameras are to take images, not impress reviewers.

QuoteQuote:
I did no processing on them at all thats why.
That's irrelevant. I was talking about the in-camera processing done by the camera when creating the file.

OK, you tell me, why does your Sony APS-c image suck so bad? It looks out of focus. You're saying it's a difference between crop APS_c on FF and and native APS-c but, there's not one iota of physics to support that. If they are both APS-c they have the same noise characteristics , DOF, whatever you you choose, it should be the same. That would be the laws of physics speaking. You're doing some kind of snow job. The only thing it could possibly be would be different Sensor technology, or different internal processing. SO if that's what your showing, that Sony's treatment of APS-c is really poor, you've ably demonstrated that.


Last edited by normhead; 11-17-2015 at 11:55 AM.
11-17-2015, 12:19 PM - 1 Like   #122
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,355
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You've provided me with an image, why would I read reviews? If I don't want that image, all the reviews in the world don't make a bit of difference. Cameras are to take images, not impress reviewers.



That's irrelevant. I was talking about the in-camera processing done by the camera when creating the file.

OK, you tell me, why does your Sony APS-c image suck so bad? It looks out of focus. You're saying it's a difference between crop APS_c on FF and and native APS-c but, there's not one iota of physics to support that. If they are both APS-c they have the same noise characteristics , DOF, whatever you you choose, it should be the same. That would be the laws of physics speaking. You're doing some kind of snow job. The only thing it could possibly be would be different Sensor technology, or different internal processing. SO if that's what your showing, that Sony's treatment of APS-c is really poor, you've ably demonstrated that.
Your image is processed a lot. I could make mine all pretty by saturating and sharpening and messing with highlights and shadows but I did it as a benchmark with nothing done in pp
Here are unprocessed 100% crops using the best lens ever pentax-A 1.2/50mm at 5.6 just to show you Sony a6000 is not crippled. They smoke your img iq do you not agree.
Attached Images
       

Last edited by Sliver-Surfer; 11-17-2015 at 12:59 PM.
11-17-2015, 12:50 PM   #123
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,663
QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
Simply put between a current 24mp aps-c and a 24mp FF a 400mm aps-c lens is going to transmit so close to the same quality image on both cameras. I'm not going to get into a brand war here because I like both brands. A6000 is far from a crippled camera read some reviews.
Man what you say is that the FF sensor outresolve the lense so there no much improvement to expect with more pixel density.

So I went to Dxo try a 400mm lens (Nikon 400mm f/2.8) on D810 and D750...

On the D810, the lens is rated as 33MP while on D750 it is rated at 24MP and on D7100 17MP.

What can we conclude?
- the 24MP sensor doesn't outresolve the lens by far. This is the contrary as even with the D810, the score is near the max resolution of the FF camera. Likely such lens would continue to get better score with an FF camera with much more MP
- The 24MP FF sensor get 24MP from the lens. But cropped to APSC size, remain only 10.5 MP while the D7100 get 17MP out of it. There significantly more detail out of the APSC crop.


But yes we look at the 80-400 from Nikon then D7100 get only 9MP while the D750 get 17MP so here clearly there no much to gain. Maybe the FF provide a wider image... but it doesn't provide more reach neither more magnification. The question if you want or not more folliage arround your bird.

I checked also the 120-300 f/2.8 from sigma and a D7100 get 16MP out of it while a D750 get 22MP out of it meaning the APSC crop can't be more than 10.5MP and then again we get a benefit from APSC. But apparently only from quite premium lenses.

To me the big question will be how the 150-450 will behave... Unfortunately it has not been tested.

At least from ephotozine on K3 it appear to be quite good and we could expect a noticable gain vs a 24MP FF... Versus a 42MP FF the question is quite different. Not sure.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 11-17-2015 at 12:58 PM.
11-17-2015, 01:07 PM   #124
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,355
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Man what you say is that the FF sensor outresolve the lense so there no much improvement to expect with more pixel density.

So I went to Dxo try a 400mm lens (Nikon 400mm f/2.8) on D810 and D750...

On the D810, the lens is rated as 33MP while on D750 it is rated at 24MP and on D7100 17MP.

What can we conclude?
- the 24MP sensor doesn't outresolve the lens by far. This is the contrary as even with the D810, the score is near the max resolution of the FF camera. Likely such lens would continue to get better score with an FF camera with much more MP
- The 24MP FF sensor get 24MP from the lens. But cropped to APSC size, remain only 10.5 MP while the D7100 get 17MP out of it. There significantly more detail out of the APSC crop.


But yes we look at the 80-400 from Nikon then D7100 get only 9MP while the D750 get 17MP so here clearly there no much to gain. Maybe the FF provide a wider image... but it doesn't provide more reach neither more magnification. The question if you want or not more folliage arround your bird.

I checked also the 120-300 f/2.8 from sigma and a D7100 get 16MP out of it while a D750 get 22MP out of it meaning the APSC crop can't be more than 10.5MP and then again we get a benefit from APSC. But apparently only from quite premium lenses.

To me the big question will be how the 150-450 will behave... Unfortunately it has not been tested.

At least from ephotozine on K3 it appear to be quite good and we could expect a noticable gain vs a 24MP FF... Versus a 42MP FF the question is quite different. Not sure.
Where did I say out resolve lenses? I didn't?

11-17-2015, 01:34 PM   #125
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,093
QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
Your image is processed a lot. I could make mine all pretty by saturating and sharpening and messing with highlights and shadows but I did it as a benchmark with nothing done in pp
Here are unprocessed 100% crops using the best lens ever pentax-A 1.2/50mm at 5.6 just to show you Sony a6000 is not crippled. They smoke your img iq do you not agree.
They are of different things, different light, how can you even pretend to Know that?

Can you take a better image than I did, of course you can , they were test images taken to compare lenses in specific every day circumstances.

What I'm saying here is you are making a lot of assumptions, and you counter that by making more? Please stop. Narrow the focus to the points raised, quit trying to expand to new points.

Why is your Sony APS_c image worse than the FF cropped to APS-c? Physics says they should be the same. Yet... yours are different.

Listen you posted this stuff, stick with it please.
11-17-2015, 01:58 PM   #126
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,355
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Why is your Sony APS_c image worse than the FF cropped to APS-c?
Larger pixels are more sensitive to light so better dynamics with bigger pixels.
11-17-2015, 02:03 PM - 1 Like   #127
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 15,751
QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
Where did I say out resolve lenses? I didn't?
Forgive me if I am wrong, but you are claiming that there is no extra detail between a 10 megapixel crop from a 24 megapixel full frame camera and a 24 megapixel APS-C image. That is saying that the center of the lens maxes out at 10 to 12 megapixels and the sensor just doesn't get anything extra, no matter how many extra megapixels you would throw into the APS-C image.
11-17-2015, 02:14 PM   #128
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,093
QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
Larger pixels are more sensitive to light so better dynamics with bigger pixels.
If one is APC-s and one is an FF shot in APS-c crop mode, and they are both 24 MP, the pixels are the same size/
A 24 MP FF camera shot in crop mode does not give you a 24 MP image, it gives you about 10.
SO are you saying a 10 MP camera shot in crop mode from an FF 24 MP camera gives you the same image as an APS-c 24 MP image.

I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say.

You said...
QuoteQuote:
They are both shot in APS-C Mode Why would I change DOF. They are both f5.6 and both aps-c


11-17-2015, 02:17 PM   #129
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,355
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Forgive me if I am wrong, but you are claiming that there is no extra detail between a 10 megapixel crop from a 24 megapixel full frame camera and a 24 megapixel APS-C image. That is saying that the center of the lens maxes out at 10 to 12 megapixels and the sensor just doesn't get anything extra, no matter how many extra megapixels you would throw into the APS-C image.
No Im saying that if I use a specific lens on a current aps-c camera with 24mp, then put it on a current 24mp FF and crop the FF image to the size of an aps-c sensor. The Image quality will be pretty much equal because pixel resolution is not as important as noise resolution and dynamics.

---------- Post added 11-17-15 at 04:22 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
f one is APC-s and one is an FF shot in APS-c crop mode, and they are both 24 MP, the pixels are the same size/ A 24 MP FF camera shot in crop mode does not give you a 24 MP image, it gives you about 10. SO are you saying a 10 MP camera shot in crop mode from an FF 24 MP camera gives you the same image as an APS-c 24 MP image. I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say. You said...
not 10mp.. 16mp ...24/1.5=16
The pixels on FF are 1.5x larger area than on aps-c
11-17-2015, 02:24 PM   #130
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 15,751
QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
No Im saying that if I use a specific lens on a current aps-c camera with 24mp, then put it on a current 24mp FF and crop the FF image to the size of an aps-c sensor. The Image quality will be pretty much equal because pixel resolution is not as important as noise resolution and dynamics.

---------- Post added 11-17-15 at 04:22 PM ----------


not 10mp.. 16mp
The pixels on FF are 1.5x larger area than on aps-c
You said you have a 24 megapixel full frame camera, right? The APS-C crop of a 36 megapixel full frame is 16-ish megapixels. The APS-C crop of a 24 megapixel full frame is between 10 and 11 megapixels. The only thing I can think is that that is all your lenses are resolving, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
11-17-2015, 02:28 PM   #131
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,355
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
In pratical terms if you want 900mm framing FF equivalent you either buy a 900mm and a FF or you buy a 600mm and FF and apply a crop factor of 1.5 or you directly take an APSC with 600mm.

If you manage to find a 900mm lens on FF you'll get an adventage, counting the lens is good enough and you can afford it. If you limit yourself to a 600mm you'll crop anyway and to keep same level of details as a 24MP APSC, you'll need a 55MP FF. If you only have 24MP you'll be limited to 10.5MP, significantly less details.

For practical purposes like printing, this has indeed some implications for the quality of the final output.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
Wrong....simple analogy...you have a roof that is 100sqft and a neighbor has a roof that is 150sqft a local bi-law says you can only put 24 solar panels on each roof. 100sq ft roof can fit 24 x 4.2sq ft panels whereas 150sq ft can fit 24 x 6.25sq ft panels. The bigger roof is going to produce the same voltage as the small one but.. It is going to collect 1.5x more light energy(watts) per unit of time. This analogy when translated to sensor size means less noise(iso) or higher shutter speed or higher aperture so you could just crop the picture by 1.5x in pp and it will be the same. I have both a 24mp aps-c and a 24mp ff. There is no iq or "magnification" advantage to aps-c.
where this all started^^^

Last edited by Sliver-Surfer; 11-17-2015 at 02:38 PM.
11-17-2015, 02:39 PM   #132
Pentaxian
ChristianRock's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Woodstock, GA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,381
QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
not 10mp.. 16mp ...24/1.5=16
The pixels on FF are 1.5x larger area than on aps-c
No, you got that wrong.

A full frame image is 1.5 times the diameter of the APS-C lens, not the overall covered area.

To get the area, you need to do the diameter multiplied by itself. So 1.5*1.5 = 2.25. That is the factor you should be looking at. A full frame image is 2.25 times greater than an APS-C image.

Actually in the case of my K20D the crop factor is actually 1.54. So 1.54*1.54 = 2.3716.

So 24MP diviced by 2.37 would be 10.13MP. That is around the size of your cropped APS-C image from the FF camera.

But don't take my word for it. Just multiply the pixel dimensions of the image you got in APS-C mode and you'll see how many MP it has in size...

So you're comparing a 10MP image with a 24MP at the same viewing size. And the 10MP somehow is looking better. Doesn't sound right to me.

Last edited by ChristianRock; 11-17-2015 at 08:38 PM.
11-17-2015, 05:38 PM   #133
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,355
you are right 10mp my mistake. But the difference in image quality is still very close to the same.
11-17-2015, 08:11 PM   #134
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,355
Ok I went back and did some more tests because when I put the Pentax-A 1.2/50mm on my a6000 I was stunned at how sharp the 100% blow ups were. My results with the Pentax-A 1.2/50mm told a different story. The results show the cropped FF was pretty equal in noise, a bit better in colour rendition and dynamics but lost out in the Micro Contrast. Time to eat crow.
I also did tests with m42 takumar 2.8/105mm but it would not show any difference between the 2 cameras so i have to say results depends on how good your lens is. So I am kinda wrong kinda a bit right..

Results..I still think most telephotos would not be able to resolve as sharp as the 1.2/50mm at 5.6.
Sony A7 24mp FF Cropped to 10mp APS-c (not full size)

Sony A6000 24mp aps-c (not full size)

Sony A7 24mp FF Cropped to 10mp APS-c 150% crop

Sony A6000 24mp aps-c 100% crop


Last edited by Sliver-Surfer; 11-18-2015 at 07:32 AM.
11-17-2015, 08:34 PM   #135
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,093
QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
Ok I went back and did some more tests because when I put the Pentax-A 1.2/50mm on my a6000 I was stunned at how sharp the 100% blow ups were. My results with the Pentax-A 1.2/50mm told a different story. The results show the cropped FF was pretty equal in noise, a bit better in colour rendition and dynamics but lost out in the Micro Contrast. Time to eat crow.
I also did tests with m42 takumar 2.8/105mm but it would not show any difference between the 2 cameras so i have to say results depends on how good your lens is. So I am kinda wrong kinda a bit right..
Sony A7 24mp FF Cropped to 10mp APS-c (not full size)

Sony A6000 24mp aps-c (not full size)

Sony A7 24mp FF Cropped to 10mp APS-c 150% crop

Sony A6000 24mp aps-c 100% crop
Well, that is way better than being all wrong....
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
a7, af, auto focus, cipa statistics, data, dslr, dslrs, evf, ff, fujifilm, increase, lens, magnification, market, milc, milcs, normhead, ovf, pentax news, pentax rumors, people, production, project, september, september those dslrs, split, statistics for september, vs
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ebay: Fa* 600mm + K5 Silver Edition for those of you who just won the lottery mgbirder Pentax Price Watch 10 11-18-2014 08:18 PM
Mirror-less cameras hanging on to their sales better than DSLRs per CIPA philbaum Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 22 06-02-2014 09:57 AM
My *ist DS just won't die jhaji Pentax DSLR Discussion 4 04-12-2013 10:07 PM
Cityscape winter just won't let go.......... dcmsox2004 Post Your Photos! 6 03-01-2011 08:08 AM
CIPA Global Dslrs numbers for 2008 are out & forcasts 2009-2011 Samsungian Pentax News and Rumors 9 02-06-2009 11:32 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:45 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top