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11-07-2015, 08:00 PM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
the wheelchair tells the stairs what slope it can manage. The stairs choose not to listen to the wheelchair. This is the problem of the stairs......
If the lens has the lever to communicate the aperture position but the mount lacks the coupler to sense where the lever is - then the 'fault' is in the mount.

11-07-2015, 08:55 PM   #197
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But if it can't do it electronically then its the lens' fault. We can chicken egg this all you want but technology moves on. Theres a button that enables the use of these lenses (some of my faves!) and thats a great selling feature. I personally would rather this camera focus on things like focus so it can be an actual viable product rather then some 80's stuff.
11-07-2015, 10:45 PM - 1 Like   #198
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"Fault" is such a judgmental word, and neither lens nor mount designed itself. Maybe we could try "inadequacy" because from either viewpoint, the other is inadequately equipped to allow full functionality of the lens on the mount/body. If there is fault, it lies with the team who decided to disallow full aperture metering for pre-A lenses on the KAF mount. Apparently, it was done to save money.

Full aperture metering had been available from the M42 mount on the Spotmatic-F (I bought one, new in 1975, just because of that feature), so it was a poor decision to disadvantage Pentax users who'd been loyal to the brand for years, especially through the mount change from M42 to K-mount (which they managed without disadvantage to anyone).

I know Ricoh's management has said they'd like to do it, but couldn't do it economically, which makes me wonder more about their willingness than their capability to restore functionality to older lenses. I know the mount is crowded now, but I really don't see how it is much of an engineering issue to provide simple tracking of a lever and emulation of a variable resistor. To be sure, it adds cost, but if your going to do it, this would have been the time, with a new high-cost product to help write off the design effort at a small percentage addition to the price. But then, the same could have held with the *istD when it was new and expensive, but they declined the opportunity.
11-08-2015, 01:19 AM   #199
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Just to remind the concept of "death by a thousand cuts". A few dollars here a few dollars spent there, it adds up. Most of the people would argue that there are more features in an entry DSLR than one could shake a stick at.

11-08-2015, 01:34 AM - 1 Like   #200
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I've said it before, and i say it again. This first FF is aimed at pros and other serious photographers. This will reflect at most features on the camera. Some "old school" photographers won't like it..but thats life..cant please them all. Ricoh looks ahead and wants to attract more new user and more pros (here is one of the reasons i am signed).

It won't be any mirrorless FF in the near future either. Pentax production line was close to nothing left when Ricoh got in. They need to rebuild everything..and it isn't done over night. It takes time.

I've also said many times, that the future is bright..And it really is!!

If I sign for Sony/Nikon/Canon/Leica/Fuji or something..THEN you should be worried..haha
11-08-2015, 03:52 AM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
"Fault" is such a judgmental word, and neither lens nor mount designed itself. Maybe we could try "inadequacy" because from either viewpoint, the other is inadequately equipped to allow full functionality of the lens on the mount/body. If there is fault, it lies with the team who decided to disallow full aperture metering for pre-A lenses on the KAF mount. Apparently, it was done to save money.

Full aperture metering had been available from the M42 mount on the Spotmatic-F (I bought one, new in 1975, just because of that feature), so it was a poor decision to disadvantage Pentax users who'd been loyal to the brand for years, especially through the mount change from M42 to K-mount (which they managed without disadvantage to anyone).

I know Ricoh's management has said they'd like to do it, but couldn't do it economically, which makes me wonder more about their willingness than their capability to restore functionality to older lenses. I know the mount is crowded now, but I really don't see how it is much of an engineering issue to provide simple tracking of a lever and emulation of a variable resistor. To be sure, it adds cost, but if your going to do it, this would have been the time, with a new high-cost product to help write off the design effort at a small percentage addition to the price. But then, the same could have held with the *istD when it was new and expensive, but they declined the opportunity.
Clearly Ricoh's goal is to sell new cameras and new lenses. If they do the calculations and decide that keeping stop down metering with these old lenses versus allowing full aperture metering will not change sales significantly, then I suppose they can be forgiven if they invest their R and D time and money in other aspects of the camera.

Most Pentaxians who are interested in this camera would buy it either way. Folks coming in from other brands will do so on the basis of interesting features that Canon/Nikon/Sony don't have.

I have no idea how expensive or difficult it would be to "uncripple" the mount, I just don't think it is a focus in a camera that already has taken longer than expected to launch.

Last edited by Rondec; 11-08-2015 at 04:23 AM.
11-08-2015, 04:09 AM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacu Quote
Just to remind the concept of "death by a thousand cuts". A few dollars here a few dollars spent there, it adds up. Most of the people would argue that there are more features in an entry DSLR than one could shake a stick at.
Of course. Sometimes, it's just too hard to undo what's been done. The original decision was a poor one, in my view, but it was made nearly twenty years ago. I wasn't suggesting they should, and I'm fairly certain they won't return to the original KAF2 features, but that doesn't excuse the people who made that decision, even if they did make it in good faith.

Twenty years later, though, fewer people are disadvantaged, or at least disadvantaged as comprehensively, so another design team has most likely made a decision to not redress the past. We'll just have to live with it.
11-08-2015, 04:37 AM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
I know Ricoh's management has said they'd like to do it, but couldn't do it economically, which makes me wonder more about their willingness than their capability to restore functionality to older lenses
When did they say that? Cite the source please. I'd like to see it as it must be an interview I missed. And of course the reply could just have been a polite way of saying "Not bloody likely!"

Of course the unhappy ones can always wave the powerless "I'm gonna jump ship" stick and go with Canon or Sony. The threat is empty since the auto-stop down lever is not supported and in addition to stop-down metering you have to manually stop down the lens and record the f-stop even with "A" lenses. Not to mention that they few adapters that have a aperture ring are step-less (not sure about the Novaflex). Most likely it is step-less since the first two or so click stops from wide open vary depending on the speed of the lens.

11-08-2015, 04:42 AM   #204
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Perhaps it's about this interview?
2015 Pentax Interview Transcript - CP+ 2015 | PentaxForums.com
QuoteQuote:
7. Do you plan to reintroduce the aperture coupler in the Pentax full-frame body so that legacy lenses can meter without having to stop down?
I think it's important but it's difficult because of the limited space.
11-08-2015, 04:48 AM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Thank you. I thought they'd cited cost as well as space, but I don't see it there.

---------- Post added 8th Nov 2015 at 10:57 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Not a Number Quote
…Of course the unhappy ones can always wave the powerless "I'm gonna jump ship" stick and go with Canon or Sony. The threat is empty since the auto-stop down lever is not supported and in addition to stop-down metering you have to manually stop down the lens and record the f-stop even with "A" lenses. Not to mention that they few adapters that have a aperture ring are step-less (not sure about the Novaflex). Most likely it is step-less since the first two or so click stops from wide open vary depending on the speed of the lens.
Not entirely sure what you're saying with the A-lenses, but just to be clear, A-lenses do record the f-stop when set on A.
11-08-2015, 05:08 AM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by infoomatic Quote
I am probably the first one who loses the display :-D
"I am probably the first one who loses the display :-D" ...pump your brakes, there...As someone who regularly leaves his car keys in the fridge and searches aggressively for glasses on my head for extended periods of time, I deserve to be the first to lose the display....

---------- Post added 11-08-15 at 07:21 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by rod_grant Quote
Well said NZ Ross.
I realise the duress that you are under, given the cricket over the past three days.
"I realise the duress that you are under, given the cricket over the past three days."
True, but I'm pretty sure the All Blacks are feeling just fine at the moment....
11-08-2015, 05:32 AM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
Of course. Sometimes, it's just too hard to undo what's been done. The original decision was a poor one, in my view, but it was made nearly twenty years ago. I wasn't suggesting they should, and I'm fairly certain they won't return to the original KAF2 features, but that doesn't excuse the people who made that decision, even if they did make it in good faith.

Twenty years later, though, fewer people are disadvantaged, or at least disadvantaged as comprehensively, so another design team has most likely made a decision to not redress the past. We'll just have to live with it.
I bought my first Pentax SLR in 1979 and my second in 1984, so I have several Pentax-M and Pentax-A lenses. Skipping a bunch of details, I then spent some time in Canikonville, but recently returned to Pentax when I bought a K-30 to replace my Canon Rebel which had surprised my by dying prematurely. Is there an article around here that will explain what I missed during that time away from Pentax, especially how my K-30 is limited when I mount and use one of my 30-year-old lenses?
11-08-2015, 05:47 AM   #208
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Who knows maybe if the ff pentax is successful they will make a spotmatic-d that has no back screen and only shoots 36 files on a card.
11-08-2015, 05:50 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
Who knows maybe if the ff pentax is successful they will make a spotmatic-d that has no back screen and only shoots 36 files on a card.
Give it an 'uncrippled' 1:1 finder, nfc with wifi for connecting to your 5" smartphone display and you may have an interesting little spotmatic-d despite your intended sarcasm ;-)
11-08-2015, 06:33 AM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I bought my first Pentax SLR in 1979 and my second in 1984, so I have several Pentax-M and Pentax-A lenses. Skipping a bunch of details, I then spent some time in Canikonville, but recently returned to Pentax when I bought a K-30 to replace my Canon Rebel which had surprised my by dying prematurely. Is there an article around here that will explain what I missed during that time away from Pentax, especially how my K-30 is limited when I mount and use one of my 30-year-old lenses?
All that you've missed is the ability to set the aperture ring on those A lenses and have the camera know where it's set. Instead, you have to leave the aperture ring set to "A" and then set the desired aperture on the camera. Pressing the "green" button then provides the camera with the estimated exposure.
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