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11-10-2015, 11:01 AM   #316
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
Ah, what would the world be without English idioms.

"A hell of a camera" (or any other item) means "wow, great camera"
Like "you're doing a hell of a job, Brownie?" or "That's a hell of a way to run a railroad?"
Or
Great = Large?

I'm waiting for real experience and information with a "hell of a great camera!"

---------- Post added 2015-11-10 at 01:06 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Actually I think Nikon has indicated the Df is a success. It is not intended to be a high volume product.
And Pentax.Ricoh declared K-01 to be a success. I'll never know, but I wonder how the numbers for the ugliest Nikon and the simplest Pentax compare.

11-10-2015, 11:09 AM   #317
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
The 645 digitals, I am told, kept the aperture coupler - it would be interesting to know why this was done for the MF cameras but not the APS-C's.
Maybe it has to do with the leaf shutter lenses? How many K-mount leaf shutter lenses do you have?

Let's take a look at the 645z English manual:
QuoteQuote:
Inside cover:
Lenses you can use
In general, lenses that can be used with this camera are D FA645 and
FA645 lenses, and 645 lenses that have an Aperture A (Auto) position.
To use any other lens or accessory, see p.28 of this manual.
Page 28 Notes read:
*1 This includes all types of helicoid extension tubes and accessories without information contacts.
*2 Stop-down metering

Display of aperture guide in viewfinder at a position other than A *3
*3 Depending on the lens, the aperture ring value and the value displayed in the viewfinder may not match.
AV/M mode only, no f-stop display

For 67 lenses with adapter:
AV/M mode only, no f-stop display

So basically you only get full automation with A lenses in the A mode and out of the A mode the f-stop indicator in the viewfinder may be off from what the aperture ring on the lens is set to. Sounds like you are probably better off with stop down metering with non-A lenses.
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11-10-2015, 11:36 AM - 1 Like   #318
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QuoteOriginally posted by squareeyes Quote
I'll never know, but I wonder how the numbers for the ugliest Nikon and the simplest Pentax compare.
I love my Df, and think it looks great! Far better than some blobs that I won't name (definitely NOT including Pentax in that description).
11-10-2015, 11:39 AM - 1 Like   #319
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Solid metal cars with full bumpers aren't coming back either.. now you get hit at 5 or 6 mph and you have 800 dollars in damage. There were definitely advantages to the old designs. On the other hand, cars now are generally lighter and get better fuel economy. So there are advantages to the new designs as well.
The primary reason for introducing car bodies that dent easily was to protect the occupants with a "crumple zone" that absorbed some of the energy of a collision. In the old days, the car didn't dent as much, so the occupants crumpled instead.

11-10-2015, 03:34 PM   #320
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
"Shoehorning" has a connotation of "forcing", as in "squeezing". Nothing of this sort is required to add an aperture coupler.

What you apparently mean is "misguided" or "adverse to growing the customer base".

While I don't believe that developing an aperturer coupler would imply a lot of sacrifices regarding other developments, I don't take issue with the idea that an aperture coupler should not be high on the priority list. In fact, as I already said multiple times I do agree that the priority should be low as the financial viability is doubtful.

But a case of "shoehorning" it wouldn't be, hence my objection.
No, I meant shoehorning. Yes, it has a connotation of 'forcing.' And of this sort is required to add an aperture coupler in a features context... which is what I meant all along. Of course there is space in the body to add this.. no problem. The problem is in if designing the hardware and software associated to support it will warrant the cost in doing so. Ricoh obviously have bigger fish to fry.

---------- Post added 11-10-15 at 04:48 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Cassettes are long, long, long insufficient to store programs (because of capacity) or access them in a timely and reliable manner. "Legacy glass" captures more or less the same amount of data as new lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by pete-tarmigan Quote
The primary reason for introducing car bodies that dent easily was to protect the occupants with a "crumple zone" that absorbed some of the energy of a collision. In the old days, the car didn't dent as much, so the occupants crumpled instead.
Both of these are correct. However, you're both missing the point by focusing on the wrong thing.

And most cars today have an incredibly expensive, plastic/composite cover and a thin, narrow bar with pads underneath for a bumper. Not the wide, external metal jobbies from days long gone by. But, again, this is neither here nor there.

Because it wasn't about the bumpers on a car or cassette tapes, but about technology and designs and desires changing with respect to consumer devices.

I'm all for an aperture coupler. I just don't see Ricoh adding one any time soon... short of a Df-esque body which I also don't see happening any time soon. Ricoh doesn't seem to have the resources to design one atm. It is much ballyhooed and desired here but I think that is because we have an older than average community that grew up photographing with manual lenses. We're a niche of the niche with respect to larger photographic community. And, as kenspo so eloquentally stated, "They are making a pro camera for the future. "
11-10-2015, 04:43 PM - 2 Likes   #321
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
And your own comment agrees with my PoV.. it is a very niche product. Nikon started over a decade ago by filling the modern side of the market with cameras and lenses and then MUCH later (only recently) backfilled for the vintage/legacy/old lenses with a niche body catering to those old lenses/shooters.
It is apparently little known, but all reasonably high end Nikon bodies (D7000 and newer versions of the same, anything "pro", anything FF) have support for the Nikon equivalent of K and M lenses. What the Df adds is support for their equivalent of M42 lenses.

And I mean full support. Take an AI lens lens (like a K lens) and put it on a D7000. Tell the camera what the largest aperture of the lens is. You get aperture readout in the finder. You get working metering. Even flash metering works.

QuoteOriginally posted by Not a Number Quote
Maybe it has to do with the leaf shutter lenses? How many K-mount leaf shutter lenses do you have?

Let's take a look at the 645z English manual:


Page 28 Notes read:
*1 This includes all types of helicoid extension tubes and accessories without information contacts.
*2 Stop-down metering

Display of aperture guide in viewfinder at a position other than A *3
*3 Depending on the lens, the aperture ring value and the value displayed in the viewfinder may not match.
AV/M mode only, no f-stop display

For 67 lenses with adapter:
AV/M mode only, no f-stop display

So basically you only get full automation with A lenses in the A mode and out of the A mode the f-stop indicator in the viewfinder may be off from what the aperture ring on the lens is set to. Sounds like you are probably better off with stop down metering with non-A lenses.
Notes 1 and 2 are only about the helicoid extension tube, which doesn't pass anything at all through (it's like those really cheap chinese K mount extension tubes, except it's a helicoid and not crap). No camera could to better with a tube like that.

Note 3 is presumably the same as for the 645N, which means it works fine for most lenses and some lenses are off half a stop. It's fine, I only have one lens with this problem, and it's not much of a problem.

I think they should have added the ability the tell the camera the largest aperture of 67 lenses, which would have made them work as well as the A lenses in non-A mode. (They give the camera the same information an M lens gives a K mount camera.) But it's still good. Much better than I dare hope to ever see in a K mount camera.
11-11-2015, 07:01 AM   #322
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
And I mean full support. Take an AI lens lens (like a K lens) and put it on a D7000. Tell the camera what the largest aperture of the lens is. You get aperture readout in the finder. You get working metering. Even flash metering works.
That's quite interresting !
11-11-2015, 07:18 AM   #323
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
It is apparently little known, but all reasonably high end Nikon bodies (D7000 and newer versions of the same, anything "pro", anything FF) have support for the Nikon equivalent of K and M lenses. What the Df adds is support for their equivalent of M42 lenses.

And I mean full support. Take an AI lens (like a K lens) and put it on a D7000. Tell the camera what the largest aperture of the lens is. You get aperture readout in the finder. You get working metering. Even flash metering works.
Wow.

Yeah, I think Ricoh/Pentax needs to get on board with this. Not necessarily right now, but sometime in the future (unless they have already and we just don't know it yet! ). Mind you, it may be that something about the way the Nikons stop down makes this easier - e.g. the way the Pentax A stop-down lever is proportional to f-stops rather than aperture diameter as with their predecessors.

I've often wondered what the Pentax equivalents of non-AI, AI, AI-S etc. lenses are. My understanding is that pre-AI lenses meter wide open the way our K mount and late Takumar film-era lenses do; they just need the lever manually lined up at the start. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

11-11-2015, 07:56 AM   #324
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Unfortunately for Pentax, they made their legacy lenses far too well, so that the remain useful well beyond their expected useful lives. They are the principal product competition for new Pentax lenses: I'm quite shocked Pentax even allows us stop-down metering today, and pretty decent metering at that.
11-11-2015, 09:08 AM   #325
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I'm quite shocked Pentax even allows us stop-down metering today, and pretty decent metering at that.
No need to be shocked.

Maintaining a good level of backward-compatibility has been a major drawcard for Pentax. Allowing a relatively cheap entry to the system makes it attractive for new customers to join and in time most of them will buy more current lenses. This will certainly not apply to every Pentax user but I'm convinced the nice level of backward-compatibility was an important factor in many a Pentaxian's considerations. It surely was for me.

Also, it wouldn't make sense to keep using a half-mechanical mount if that didn't mean that user gained access to millions of legacy lenses that can be used in a decent manner.
11-11-2015, 09:33 AM   #326
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
they made their legacy lenses far too well, so that the remain useful well beyond their expected useful lives. They are the principal product competition for new Pentax lenses:
I've often wondered why we don't have more DA primes. The answer is probably the FA series, which gives essentially the same functionality on DSLRs when switched to A mode, but in that case why is the line of ongoing FA primes not larger? We still have the 50/1.4 and the 35/2.0, of course, and all the FA Limiteds (if your budget stretches to those), but the main reason I bought secondhand 28mm and 135mm FA primes is because there was no DA equivalent and now probably never will be.
11-11-2015, 10:02 AM   #327
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Hoya owned the company during the APSc / DA Prime development years. That's all you need to know.
11-11-2015, 10:09 AM   #328
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Hoya owned the company during the APSc / DA Prime development years. That's all you need to know.
Oddly enough I actually had written, then deleted as simplistic, a sentence that read "Can we blame Hoya?"
11-11-2015, 11:27 AM   #329
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Mind you, it may be that something about the way the Nikons stop down makes this easier - e.g. the way the Pentax A stop-down lever is proportional to f-stops rather than aperture diameter as with their predecessors.
No useful difference. You still have to set your desired aperture using the aperture ring on those lenses, it's just that the camera has a feeler for where you set it. Pentax could do the same for K/M lenses, they just don't.

QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
I've often wondered what the Pentax equivalents of non-AI, AI, AI-S etc. lenses are. My understanding is that pre-AI lenses meter wide open the way our K mount and late Takumar film-era lenses do; they just need the lever manually lined up at the start. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
I've never had a Nikon, but I think it's about like this:

Really old Nikon lenses are like most M42 lenses, they have no communication of aperture selection to the camera.
Newer non-AI lenses have a "claw" that communicates selected aperture, but it seems to require some extra gymnastics when mounting. (This is not supported on the Df, so they work like the really old lenses.)
AI lenses are like K/M lenses and tell the camera the relative aperture selected.
AI-S are like A lenses and can have the aperture selection controlled by the camera.

All versions of course have at least open/close aperture control from the camera, just like all versions of K mount.
11-11-2015, 07:46 PM   #330
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Slightly interesting to refresh regarding Ricoh's CP+ 2015 statement pertaining to the Pentax full frame, motivation and lens compatibility. Located toward bottom of the interview.

CP+ 2015 Interview: Ricoh’s investment in Pentax, full-frame strategy, lens plans and more

Last edited by One3rdEV; 11-11-2015 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Clarified location of interest
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