Pentax K-1 (tentative) exhibited in Salon de la Photo from Paris

pacu · 12-10-2015, 02:13 AM

With the assumption of a working quality control , propably anything Pentax will bring out will be better than Nikon D810.

**Rondec** · 12-10-2015, 04:19 AM

Originally posted by rawr

In looking at the 24MP and above APS-C performance data at DxOMark, over recent years the 24MP high-ISO chip performance trend generally seems to be heading up - eg NEX7 to A6000, D3200 to D3300. For some reason the K-3 family missed this trend, however.

The differences between 1200 and 1400 iso are small enough that you probably can't tell the difference. If you look at DXO Mark, the SNR of all of these cameras is pretty much equivalent, it is just that some of the newer ones (the D7200 in particular) do a little better at holding onto dynamic range.

I have to think that the D7200 sensor is one designed with specific Nikon tweaks on it and perhaps Nikon employs some RAW smoothing as well to assist with the end result. Be that as it may, it is definitely the top of the hill with regard to APS-C sensors.

beholder3 · 12-10-2015, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

- easy to critisize only 0.2EV gain for Nikon....

I don't critizise Nikon. I just point out that Sony and others have not managed to produce a convincing new sensor in quite some time now. It's just ame me-too mini upgrades. Or in the case of the 42Mpx sensor: downgrade.

Originally posted by Nicolas06

- Sony 42MP BSI sensor is a great sensor. Sure the 50iso simulation is worse than Nikon 50 iso simulation. But at iso 100 the difference is 0.3EV...

The 42Mix sensor sucks if you count in that it is supposed to be "new". It is a 0,86 EV step back from the performance of the 32 Mpx sensor used in the D810. That is pretty much exactly as worse as usually an APSC sensor lags behind a FF sensor in maximum dynamic range. Sony 42 Mpx sensor = fail.

It also has serious bugs during long exposures in it that I do not want to see:
A7R II - Hotpixel Problem
A7R II - Hotpixel Problem - DSLR-Forum
A7rii Hot pixels during long exposure.
A7rii Hot pixels during long exposure.: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
Strange "Confetti Noise" on Long Time Exposures with Sony A7RII - Any Idea
Strange "Confetti Noise" on Long Time Exposures with Sony A7RII - Any Idea?: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Sony seems to be having major quality control problems in their sensor design it seems.
Call the 42 Mpx sensor the Windows Vista / 8 sensor.

**Rondec** · 12-10-2015, 06:37 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by beholder3

I don't critizise Nikon. I just point out that Sony and others have not managed to produce a convincing new sensor in quite some time now. It's just ame me-too mini upgrades. Or in the case of the 42Mpx sensor: downgrade.

The 42Mix sensor sucks if you count in that it is supposed to be "new". It is a 0,86 EV step back from the performance of the 32 Mpx sensor used in the D810. That is pretty much exactly as worse as usually an APSC sensor lags behind a FF sensor in maximum dynamic range. Sony 42 Mpx sensor = fail.

It also has serious bugs during long exposures in it that I do not want to see:
A7R II - Hotpixel Problem
A7R II - Hotpixel Problem - DSLR-Forum
A7rii Hot pixels during long exposure.
A7rii Hot pixels during long exposure.: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
Strange "Confetti Noise" on Long Time Exposures with Sony A7RII - Any Idea
Strange "Confetti Noise" on Long Time Exposures with Sony A7RII - Any Idea?: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Sony seems to be having major quality control problems in their sensor design it seems.
Call the 42 Mpx sensor the Windows Vista / 8 sensor.

I don't know how prevalent these issues are. The internet tends to magnify noise.

From what I have seen, the A7r II sensor is a little better than the D810 at high iso and a little worse at low iso. The biggest thing is that it has faster read out speeds and better video (not important to me, but probably important to a lot of folks out there). I have said multiple times before that I would be satisfied with either sensor -- probably would prefer the D810 one, as I don't really do video.

beholder3 · 12-10-2015, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

From what I have seen, the A7r II sensor is a little better than the D810 at high iso and a little worse at low iso.

Where do you want to shoot your best high pixelcount pictures? At higher ISO counts where detail and dynamic range is lost already? For me dynamic range is only important at the lowest ISO setting where it maxes out. That's when you shoot in good light (that is what pgotography is about) and have some deep shadows.

And the "little" backward/un-innovation brought by the 42 MPx sensor is as "little" as the difference between other FF and APSC (as the K-3 is as good as the Sony A7RII there).
Anyone who wants improved dynamic range for landscape shots will not get it with a A7RII sensor for about three times the price.

**Rondec** · 12-10-2015, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by beholder3

Where do you want to shoot your best high pixelcount pictures? At higher ISO counts where detail and dynamic range is lost already? For me dynamic range is only important at the lowest ISO setting where it maxes out. That's when you shoot in good light (that is what pgotography is about) and have some deep shadows.

And the "little" backward/un-innovation brought by the 42 MPx sensor is as "little" as the difference between other FF and APSC (as the K-3 is as good as the Sony A7RII there).
Anyone who wants improved dynamic range for landscape shots will not get it with a A7RII sensor for about three times the price.

The big reason to go high iso, in my opinion, is to keep your shutter speed up in situations where there isn't light to go lower. Shooting a wedding in a darkly lit church, or the reception requires high iso. These aren't necessarily high dynamic range situations, but the A7r II sensor does look better at iso 3200 and above than the D810 sensor (but both are pretty good).

If I am shooting landscapes or am in a situation where I can use flash, I will use lower iso (flash still requires iso 800 for the most part).

RonHendriks1966 · 12-10-2015, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Q is the wild card, I think. That's three mounts, and it seems less technology transfer to Q than transfers across the other three platforms (but I might not understand the workings of Q).

Q share ofcourse with the MX-1 point and shoot. No idea if Q has a long future.

pete-tarmigan · 12-10-2015, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by MikeD

Interesting, sort of dove tails with my experience in Quebec, When my wife and I were honeymooning in Montreal many yrs ago. The locals would barely speak to us until they found out we weren't from Toronto but from Michigan. I learned start any conversation with we are from the US and then the doors would open.

I was referring to the fact that Quebec French is dialect which is, by definition, is different from other French dialects and so-called metropolitan French (the common standard learned at school in addition one's local dialect). The original French settlers of Quebec were mostly from Normandy and Brittany, so Quebec soldiers wading ashore on D-Day remarked that the locals spoke a dialect very similar to their own. The Quebec and Norman dialects are difficult to understand for someone who has learned only metropolitan French or some other dialect, just as someone from Alabama would have difficulty understanding someone speaking the dialect found in Glasgow. Most Quebecers can switch effortlessly between metropolitan and Quebec French, just as most native English speakers can switch from their local dialect to Standard English.

rawr · 12-10-2015, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by beholder3

Call the 42 Mpx sensor the Windows Vista / 8 sensor.

That's being real cruel to Sony.

Perhaps Sony may have tried too hard to cram new tech directly into the 42MP sensor. Perhaps the initial chip design was ambitious and the initial run had a few bugs, but continuous improvement QC will see performance stabilise over the production life of the camera.

ogl · 12-10-2015, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by beholder3

I don't critizise Nikon. I
The 42Mix sensor sucks if you count in that it is supposed to be "new". It is a 0,86 EV step back from the performance of the 32 Mpx sensor used in the D810. That is pretty much exactly as worse as usually an APSC sensor lags behind a FF sensor in maximum dynamic range. Sony 42 Mpx sensor = fail.

It also has serious bugs during long exposures in it that I do not want to see:

Sony seems to be having major quality control problems in their sensor design it seems.

It's the common situation for mirrorless cameras. It's hard to say that it's serious bugs or problems.

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12-10-2015, 02:13 AM	#511
pacu Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 91	With the assumption of a working quality control , propably anything Pentax will bring out will be better than Nikon D810.

12-10-2015, 04:19 AM	#512
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by rawr In looking at the 24MP and above APS-C performance data at DxOMark, over recent years the 24MP high-ISO chip performance trend generally seems to be heading up - eg NEX7 to A6000, D3200 to D3300. For some reason the K-3 family missed this trend, however. The differences between 1200 and 1400 iso are small enough that you probably can't tell the difference. If you look at DXO Mark, the SNR of all of these cameras is pretty much equivalent, it is just that some of the newer ones (the D7200 in particular) do a little better at holding onto dynamic range. I have to think that the D7200 sensor is one designed with specific Nikon tweaks on it and perhaps Nikon employs some RAW smoothing as well to assist with the end result. Be that as it may, it is definitely the top of the hill with regard to APS-C sensors.

12-10-2015, 05:24 AM	#513
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Originally posted by Nicolas06 - easy to critisize only 0.2EV gain for Nikon.... I don't critizise Nikon. I just point out that Sony and others have not managed to produce a convincing new sensor in quite some time now. It's just ame me-too mini upgrades. Or in the case of the 42Mpx sensor: downgrade. Originally posted by Nicolas06 - Sony 42MP BSI sensor is a great sensor. Sure the 50iso simulation is worse than Nikon 50 iso simulation. But at iso 100 the difference is 0.3EV... The 42Mix sensor sucks if you count in that it is supposed to be "new". It is a 0,86 EV step back from the performance of the 32 Mpx sensor used in the D810. That is pretty much exactly as worse as usually an APSC sensor lags behind a FF sensor in maximum dynamic range. Sony 42 Mpx sensor = fail. It also has serious bugs during long exposures in it that I do not want to see: A7R II - Hotpixel Problem A7R II - Hotpixel Problem - DSLR-Forum A7rii Hot pixels during long exposure. A7rii Hot pixels during long exposure.: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review Strange "Confetti Noise" on Long Time Exposures with Sony A7RII - Any Idea Strange "Confetti Noise" on Long Time Exposures with Sony A7RII - Any Idea?: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review Sony seems to be having major quality control problems in their sensor design it seems. Call the 42 Mpx sensor the Windows Vista / 8 sensor.

12-10-2015, 06:37 AM - 1 Like	#514
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by beholder3 I don't critizise Nikon. I just point out that Sony and others have not managed to produce a convincing new sensor in quite some time now. It's just ame me-too mini upgrades. Or in the case of the 42Mpx sensor: downgrade. The 42Mix sensor sucks if you count in that it is supposed to be "new". It is a 0,86 EV step back from the performance of the 32 Mpx sensor used in the D810. That is pretty much exactly as worse as usually an APSC sensor lags behind a FF sensor in maximum dynamic range. Sony 42 Mpx sensor = fail. It also has serious bugs during long exposures in it that I do not want to see: A7R II - Hotpixel Problem A7R II - Hotpixel Problem - DSLR-Forum A7rii Hot pixels during long exposure. A7rii Hot pixels during long exposure.: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review Strange "Confetti Noise" on Long Time Exposures with Sony A7RII - Any Idea Strange "Confetti Noise" on Long Time Exposures with Sony A7RII - Any Idea?: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review Sony seems to be having major quality control problems in their sensor design it seems. Call the 42 Mpx sensor the Windows Vista / 8 sensor. I don't know how prevalent these issues are. The internet tends to magnify noise. From what I have seen, the A7r II sensor is a little better than the D810 at high iso and a little worse at low iso. The biggest thing is that it has faster read out speeds and better video (not important to me, but probably important to a lot of folks out there). I have said multiple times before that I would be satisfied with either sensor -- probably would prefer the D810 one, as I don't really do video.

12-10-2015, 07:02 AM	#515
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Originally posted by Rondec From what I have seen, the A7r II sensor is a little better than the D810 at high iso and a little worse at low iso. Where do you want to shoot your best high pixelcount pictures? At higher ISO counts where detail and dynamic range is lost already? For me dynamic range is only important at the lowest ISO setting where it maxes out. That's when you shoot in good light (that is what pgotography is about) and have some deep shadows. And the "little" backward/un-innovation brought by the 42 MPx sensor is as "little" as the difference between other FF and APSC (as the K-3 is as good as the Sony A7RII there). Anyone who wants improved dynamic range for landscape shots will not get it with a A7RII sensor for about three times the price.

12-10-2015, 07:11 AM	#516
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by beholder3 Where do you want to shoot your best high pixelcount pictures? At higher ISO counts where detail and dynamic range is lost already? For me dynamic range is only important at the lowest ISO setting where it maxes out. That's when you shoot in good light (that is what pgotography is about) and have some deep shadows. And the "little" backward/un-innovation brought by the 42 MPx sensor is as "little" as the difference between other FF and APSC (as the K-3 is as good as the Sony A7RII there). Anyone who wants improved dynamic range for landscape shots will not get it with a A7RII sensor for about three times the price. The big reason to go high iso, in my opinion, is to keep your shutter speed up in situations where there isn't light to go lower. Shooting a wedding in a darkly lit church, or the reception requires high iso. These aren't necessarily high dynamic range situations, but the A7r II sensor does look better at iso 3200 and above than the D810 sensor (but both are pretty good). If I am shooting landscapes or am in a situation where I can use flash, I will use lower iso (flash still requires iso 800 for the most part).

12-10-2015, 07:16 AM	#517
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by monochrome Q is the wild card, I think. That's three mounts, and it seems less technology transfer to Q than transfers across the other three platforms (but I might not understand the workings of Q). Q share ofcourse with the MX-1 point and shoot. No idea if Q has a long future.

12-10-2015, 08:09 AM	#518
pete-tarmigan Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Conception Bay South, New-fun-land Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,272	Originally posted by MikeD Interesting, sort of dove tails with my experience in Quebec, When my wife and I were honeymooning in Montreal many yrs ago. The locals would barely speak to us until they found out we weren't from Toronto but from Michigan. I learned start any conversation with we are from the US and then the doors would open. I was referring to the fact that Quebec French is dialect which is, by definition, is different from other French dialects and so-called metropolitan French (the common standard learned at school in addition one's local dialect). The original French settlers of Quebec were mostly from Normandy and Brittany, so Quebec soldiers wading ashore on D-Day remarked that the locals spoke a dialect very similar to their own. The Quebec and Norman dialects are difficult to understand for someone who has learned only metropolitan French or some other dialect, just as someone from Alabama would have difficulty understanding someone speaking the dialect found in Glasgow. Most Quebecers can switch effortlessly between metropolitan and Quebec French, just as most native English speakers can switch from their local dialect to Standard English.

12-10-2015, 09:52 AM	#519
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by beholder3 Call the 42 Mpx sensor the Windows Vista / 8 sensor. That's being real cruel to Sony. Perhaps Sony may have tried too hard to cram new tech directly into the 42MP sensor. Perhaps the initial chip design was ambitious and the initial run had a few bugs, but continuous improvement QC will see performance stabilise over the production life of the camera.

12-10-2015, 11:45 AM	#520
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by beholder3 I don't critizise Nikon. I The 42Mix sensor sucks if you count in that it is supposed to be "new". It is a 0,86 EV step back from the performance of the 32 Mpx sensor used in the D810. That is pretty much exactly as worse as usually an APSC sensor lags behind a FF sensor in maximum dynamic range. Sony 42 Mpx sensor = fail. It also has serious bugs during long exposures in it that I do not want to see: Sony seems to be having major quality control problems in their sensor design it seems. It's the common situation for mirrorless cameras. It's hard to say that it's serious bugs or problems.