[cateto]

"Factual lab test"? Their previous review on the K10D was a model on how not to do a review, bashing the camera for a (supposedly) bad JPEG quality which is denied by reality. They did not like the standard setup, but you can modify that and blow away any other similarly priced (and many others with higher price) dSLR. THAT is the reality, not the DP Reviews.

Fortunately, many photographers with actual prestige as photographers fully realized about the actual quality of the K10D, and now the K20D. The Online Photographer (made by photographers, not pixel geeks, get it?) has put the K10D at the top of the list of their recommended cameras last year, and this year they have put the K20D in the number two, second to the D300 only. Even in that position, they stated that the image quality of the K20D is better than the D300.

THAT is the kind of opinions I trust, not those coming from pixel obsessed guys. Get it?

[séamuis]

Fortunately, many photographers with actual prestige as photographers fully realized about the actual quality of the K10D, and now the K20D. The Online Photographer (made by photographers, not pixel geeks, get it?) has put the K10D at the top of the list of their recommended cameras last year, and this year they have put the K20D in the number two, second to the D300 only. Even in that position, they stated that the image quality of the K20D is better than the D300.

THAT is the kind of opinions I trust, not those coming from pixel obsessed guys. Get it?

and this is pretty much why most people here do not like DPR.

[RiceHigh]

(snipped)
THAT is the kind of opinions I trust, not those coming from pixel obsessed guys. Get it?

When you can't make the difference between objective measurements and subjective opinions, there is no more reference standard that we can take.

Of course, as we all can see, you only like those internet reviews that support your purchasing decision. But despite what DPR and others said, the soft jpegs of K10D have been shown and proven clearly, even in the DPR K20D review. Whether you found it to be an issue that you could see or affecting you or not is another thing.

Don't defend your camera model and brand too much. If so, they won't ever improve. This time, I must thank Phil Askey for pointing out the flaws of the K10D last time and now that it has been shown that Pentax had been aware of that soft jpeg issue and have got rid of it in the K20D. (So, what's wrong with that? Its a good thing afterall for what DPR did and reported)

[cateto]

Nah RH, don't play games with me: I won't bite. Look for anybody else to continue pretending to be an objective critic, instead of a pixel geek and professional Pentax basher.

[Pentaxke]

Matt,

I personally don't give a damn if its compared to a Kodak compact a Hasselblad. acctually I think comparisons in tests are useless. These tests are clearly not made for photographers, they are made for the masses that go into the nearest Kwik-E-Marts and ask the sellers to pick the cheapest for them. And the problem with that is that they don't care about reading tests.

My general opinion about producttests are that they are all more or less subjective. And comparisons are futile. What I want is acctual tests, by photographers, that use the camera.

I can see why magazines can't do it, because of their pressure to sell X number of units to statisfy their advertisers. However, websites that claim to be the best photographic sites and that they are doing it because they are saints, and not to get cash from advertisers is a different thing.

A test that I approve somewhat of is this : Leica M8 Field Test, Iraq (which i recommend reading). It tells something about how the product is to work with and what to expect.

So what does it really matter that the DPReviews (not necissarily the K20D test) are usually 15 pages of inconcistency, subjective opinions, straight out lies and 10 pages of pictures that tells you _nothing_ about what the camera is like to use and what to expect when working with it?

Well, because DPReview, somehow, has become _the_ site people refers to, when someone is asking about a camera. And they get false information and/or lack of information. Someone genuinly intrested in K20D pops into a forum and asks "hey, how is the k20d?" and he gets a link to the DPReview to learn that it lacks controls that the tester wants, it has a bad liveview that is a MUST HAVE function. He learns that the K20D have trouble with the QC because 1 of 3 _early versions_ of the sensors had a hotpixelproblem. Where else does 3 samples qualify for a labtest? Medecin? "Sure its safe, all three of our subjects survived".

And something I really really really despise is when a tester tells me straight up their opinion. One of the PRO's "Function menu for quick access to important settings (although hard buttons are better) ", oh really? I love that they have the WB in a menu, I rarely change it and have never ever ever felt that I needed to be able to change it in a hurry, hard buttons for WB is a waste of space, thats my opinion.

After reading that fieldtest, read the Leica M8 Review: 21. Conclusion: and compare conclusions, from a real photographer and a computer geek in a lab.

I'm sorry to say, but that is a ridiculous statement.
First of all, while a fieldtest like that of Michael Kamber can be very usefull, I don't think you are going to find many comparable reviews on *all* digital camera's that's been ever made. If you find something equally usefull on eg. the Fuji S5 pro, i'll be all ears. Further, while I think above review is trust worthy, I could be setting up my own blog and write an equally devastative review on any camera of my disliking. The internet is full of useful information, but you can't demise the fact it has a lot of plain rubbish too...

Holding it in that light, I find the reviews of dpr very useful and at least you can compare camera's among each other. People normally have two or three camera's in their mind before purchasing and, when making the final decision, a site like dpr is hardly needed. That said, it's not a good idea to rely solely on dpr (or any other review site for that matter.) Everytime there is a review up on dpr, people start complaining that the review is not fair: Nikon people are saying Phil is favouring Canon, Canon people are complaining he goes for the 'low' brands, while Pentax, Sony and Oly people are shouting he only knows Canon and Nikon. Taking the quadrant of the square circle, I would feel the reviews on dpr are quite balanced (although it has its' fare share of mistakes - but it has it in *all* reviews, and not only the reviews where pentax is concerned...)

Back on the subject again (K20 review): IMHO I think it clearly shows what an incredible camera the K20 would have been if Pentax (and Samung) would not have gone the marketing way and stayed with a 10 MPix count when developping the new CMOS sensor. The K20 has *no* (zip, nothing, nada) extra resolution compared to eg. the EOS 450D, and that is not all that surprising, because the lenses can't deliver. Meanwhile, the in this pages so prided dynamic range of the K20 is a laughing matter. Sure, it has more DR than the other camera's it's been compared to, but only holds it in the shadows. The highlights clip faster. Hence, extra DR is only useful in the highlights. So, to speak of a better DR is very questionable at the least. And the D-range is simply pathetic (IMHO anyway, since I had the honour to use the Fuji S5 on various occasions...)

That said, Kudos for Pentax for their brave manner to not do extensive 'pastel paint' noise reduction like the competition does...

[brothereye]

For the love of god, stop ruining my internet experience or I shall have to ask for a refund of the time you waste. Stop linking your blog, post what you have to say in the forums. I have no need for a link collection to blogs.

Oh, now you've done it. You've said what many people were thinking.

RH's blog is a fun read though, it can at times be irrational, contradictory and funny. There is some kernel of truth occasionally but it gets pretty wild outside of that.

Speaking of kernels, where's my popcorn?

[ogl]

About noise test in jpeg - they use BRIGHT MODE without ANY NOISE REDUCTION.
It's K20's default.

All rest cameras (incl.A700) have NORMAL mode and NR ON as default. Funny.

[ftpaddict]

One thing I've noticed about dpreview is that they test cameras using their standard settings, instead of configuring them so that they output the best possible result.

In a way they are expecting their readers/users to be completely incompetent and use their $1000 cameras in the default mode.

[cateto]

In a way they are expecting their readers/users to be completely incompetent and use their $1000 cameras in the default mode.

Possibly they are addressing that kind of readers, those who can spend big bucks on big cameras but possibly not too worried about how to actually use best such equipment. More about the look, and less about the meat. Which, also in a way, is the kind of website that DP Review belongs to: look, not meat.

As my favourite musician would say, that is the Sign O' the times.

[brothereye]

One thing I've noticed about dpreview is that they test cameras using their standard settings, instead of configuring them so that they output the best possible result.

In a way they are expecting their readers/users to be completely incompetent and use their $1000 cameras in the default mode.

Someone here has a sig that says something like "Which button do I press to take a good picture?", and that does sum up a certain attitude. The people who think that there's an "Easy" button for everthing. I have known and currently know people like that, so they are out there, I just try to avoid them.

[m8o]

Being @ work and not able to afford the time, I skipped right to the conclusion too. Critiques included & accepted, I liked what I read. I did just get my K10D back from repair, just had major retaining wall done, just bought a car, need some other costly stuff... so I can't justify buying the K20D @ the introductory price right now; maybe if I was going on a trip that required me having two bodies. However, I will be buying it eventually.

One thing I don't get however, in the bottom table of the conclusion page:
Ergonomics & handling 8.5

At the top of the same page:
Ergonomics up with the best of the best

??? lol... not that it matters.

[ftpaddict]

One thing I don't get however, in the bottom table of the conclusion page:
Ergonomics & handling 8.5

At the top of the same page:
Ergonomics up with the best of the best

??? lol... not that it matters.

They didn't want to make it look TOO good for the public.

[benjikan]

They didn't want to make it look TOO good for the public.

Agreed!

Ben

[cateto]

I agree too:

If you forget about the mumbojumbo from canikonist sites, the embarassing truth for the marketing guys at both at Canon & Nikon is that Pentax is offering a stunning camera at a price that puts into shame their offerings. It is truly too good, too cheap, just as it was the K10D when released.

[MikePerham]

Folks, just ignore RH. He loves the verbal fencing matches in which you ingage him when he makes his inflamatory remarks ...I think he really gets off on it. So just ignore him and perhaps he will go away.