[Nicolas06]

And You know ?

I know who you are: the typicall troll either by accident or by willingness..

The guy that for sure loved Pentax until now and brought everything from it. A guy that claim photography is mostly about low light performance 3200-12800 and loved Pentax until now with APSC bodies. But now that there will be an FF avaiable, you'll not buy it because of the terrible high iso performance it will get: it should have sub 20MP resolution. We may never get a new FF camera released with sub 20MP anymore, but that a mere detail that the sale manager in you decided to ignore.

You go out shooting your whole experience of everything you did in life like if shooting film or selling cameras or repearing MF lenses would have any link with the design of sensor photosites and physics associated to it.

And let's not forget the cherry on the cake... Now you don't even write in english anymore. You explain that really we are not worth the time.


Man if you don't want to continue with Pentax, nobody care except you. If you want to buy only camera with sub 20MP nobody care except you.

[FantasticMrFox]

I don't know, who You are in photography, just can say, who am I...

[...]

I'm long time "deep inside" Photography not only like a amateur. And I know pretty good , how stuff working.

Your entire point is based on a logical fallacy called 'ad verecundiam', also known as 'argument from authority'. The problem here is that being a working photographer with a lot of experience doesn't mean you have a significant knowledge of the physics behind it and the theories involved in sensor performance.

There is more than enough evidence all around us to be found online that there is no linear relationship between resolution and high ISO performance. Many of today's highest resolution APS-C and full-frame sensors also have among the highest performances in their class for high ISO. A camera doesn't need to be artificially crippled with low resolution to produce good low light results.

If what you are claiming was true and high resolutions would have a clearly detrimental effect on high ISO performance, then thousands of professional photographers around the world would be complaining about the Nikon D810, or the Canon 5DS, or the Sony A7R II and demand from the manufacturers to produce more low-resolution cameras. But they don't. Because it's unnecessary.

It's not going to happen. Your demands for a sub-20 MP FF camera will not be fulfilled, so you might as well make up your mind right now and buy a Sony A7S II.

[monochrome]

Unfortunately the current US political environment has rendered Godwin quite dead...

It's a derivative of Mutually Assured Destruction.

[luftfluss]

It's a derivative of Mutually Assured Destruction.

Wait, so Pentax Is Doomed™ is now We Are All Doomed™?

[monochrome]

Wait, so Pentax Is Doomed™ is now We Are All Doomed™?

You Tube

You Tube

[Matthew Saville]

I think "hand-me-down" sensors are a good thing. Too many new sensors have problems that weren't detected before production and the first reponders just have to live with the problems as they are discovered.

The only problems with the 36mp sensors, as i remember, were that both Nikon and Sony had shutter-shock exhibited at some shutter speed areas like 1/100s. Once they took corrective action with the shutters, no more problems. Plus, Pentax will likely be able to get the sensors at a reduced price and thereby compete in the FF arena with lower cost. Its a win-win situation.

At this point no 36 MP sensor faces the "risk of being too new" as you describe; the D810 sensor has been on the market for over a year and is a champion in many regards, and even the D810A sensor is a known quantity at this point.

So yes, I would absolutely consider it a slap in the face if Sony tried to off-load their oldest, worst 36 MP sensors on Pentax. This would put the Pentax FF at a serious disadvantage in many regards, and would definitely NOT meet the aspiration of being a 645Z on a budget.

Anyways, I don't want my whole point to be missed or lost due to differences of opinion on what is or isn't a good "move" for Pentax. My original point is this: 36 is just a number, and as the existing generations of 36 MP sensors have demonstrated, there's a lot you can do with subtle tweaks to the sensor itself, or the raw processing. And I think that we all hope for the absolute best in this regard.

In other words, if Pentax wants to be taken as seriously with their full-frame DSLR as their 645D/Z series is taken, then I don't think they can afford to hit the bargain bin of old 36 MP sensors.

BTW, the Nikon D810 can be had on the grey market for about $2100 these days, and I certainly hope there's still a bit of profit left in it for them at that price. To me, this gives hope that Pentax can easily deliver a class-leading sensor in a ~$2500 package.

[philbaum]

At this point no 36 MP sensor faces the "risk of being too new" as you describe; the D810 sensor has been on the market for over a year and is a champion in many regards, and even the D810A sensor is a known quantity at this point.

So yes, I would absolutely consider it a slap in the face if Sony tried to off-load their oldest, worst 36 MP sensors on Pentax. ....

..... My original point is this: 36 is just a number, and as the existing generations of 36 MP sensors have demonstrated, there's a lot you can do with subtle tweaks to the sensor itself, or the raw processing. And I think that we all hope for the absolute best in this regard.

BTW, the Nikon D810 can be had on the grey market for about $2100 these days, and I certainly hope there's still a bit of profit left in it for them at that price. To me, this gives hope that Pentax can easily deliver a class-leading sensor in a ~$2500 package.

Your reply is a bit contradictory - at one point you say 36mp sensors are a slap in the face and at another point, you say that 36 is just a number???

What no one seems to know is whether Sony will sell the 42mp sensor, they sure haven't sold the A7s 12mp low light sensor to any other company.

What was in the back of my mind when i wrote the post, was the A7 sensor. It was later shown to have what were thought to be reflections off the sensor face, i guess. In any case, a number of users had shown long exposure shots where spotlights had a weird elliptical shape to them. I think they were more along the edges of the sensor. Not sure everyone experienced that but those reports put me off from even considering the A7. With regard to the A7RII 42mp sensor, there have been some reports of heat problems resulting in more noise for long exposures. Other users say not. It may depend on the ambient temperature conditions where the shooting is taking place. Or it may be the Sony penchant of putting sensors in tight little boxes where heat builds up. I don't know for sure, just reporting what i've read elsewhere. (I haven't encountered any overheating problems with my A7RII)

So i wouldn't consider getting a FF 36mp camera, perhaps at $2100, as any slap in the face. Especially if it came without any sensor reflections or overheating problems in any ambient conditions. Just saying...be careful what you wish for Graphs from DXO don't tell the whole story.

---

Last edited by philbaum; 11-22-2015 at 01:06 PM.

[RonHendriks1966]

I think that ordering a special sensor isn't an option for Pentax due to low orders. On the other hand if Sony makes a good sensor for Olympus, why not. Having a special sensor is more expensive, but on the other hand that makes you stand out.

If possible then a cut from 645Z sensor makes 30 megapixels of greatnes and makes it easier to sell it as 645Z's little brother.

[osv]

So yes, I would absolutely consider it a slap in the face if Sony tried to off-load their oldest, worst 36 MP sensors on Pentax.

that is an illogical and asinine statement.

you actually think that sony has warehouses full of "oldest, worst 36 MP sensors" just laying around, waiting for some sucker company buy up the stock

you are claiming that pentax engineers are too stupid to know what "oldest, worst 36 MP sensors" are, if such a thing even exists?

stop trolling both sony and pentax.

[philbaum]

you actually think that sony has warehouses full of "oldest, worst 36 MP sensors" just laying around, waiting for some sucker company buy up the stock
.

Agree. It is likely that each sensor order is a batch process that is undertaken when orders are received. And each batch order probably includes current "best practices". There may also be contract limitations using sensors designed for other companies, like Nikon.

For still photography, i doubt that many can tell the difference between a 42mp shot and 36mp shot. IIRC, the 42mp number had something to do with video specifications, line skipping and all that stuff i don't understand

[RonHendriks1966]

that is an illogical and asinine statement.

you actually think that sony has warehouses full of "oldest, worst 36 MP sensors" just laying around, waiting for some sucker company buy up the stock

you are claiming that pentax engineers are too stupid to know what "oldest, worst 36 MP sensors" are, if such a thing even exists?

stop trolling both sony and pentax.

I don't think there is no logic in this debat about oldest and newest. Probably both 36 megapixels sensors are made on different wafer machines. They don't get obsoleet imidiatly, but stay for some time in production rooms. The price difference is coming from the investment made and the already sold production coming from them.

[bertwert]

the 42mp number had something to do with video specifications

And it is the answer to the "Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe and Everything" or "What do you get if you multiply six by nine?" or "How many roads must a man walk down?"

[RonHendriks1966]

And it is the answer to the "Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe and Everything" or "What do you get if you multiply six by nine?" or "How many roads must a man walk down?"

54

[Matthew Saville]

Your reply is a bit contradictory - at one point you say 36mp sensors are a slap in the face and at another point, you say that 36 is just a number???

What no one seems to know is whether Sony will sell the 42mp sensor, they sure haven't sold the A7s 12mp low light sensor to any other company.

What was in the back of my mind when i wrote the post, was the A7 sensor. It was later shown to have what were thought to be reflections off the sensor face, i guess. In any case, a number of users had shown long exposure shots where spotlights had a weird elliptical shape to them. I think they were more along the edges of the sensor. Not sure everyone experienced that but those reports put me off from even considering the A7. With regard to the A7RII 42mp sensor, there have been some reports of heat problems resulting in more noise for long exposures. Other users say not. It may depend on the ambient temperature conditions where the shooting is taking place. Or it may be the Sony penchant of putting sensors in tight little boxes where heat builds up. I don't know for sure, just reporting what i've read elsewhere. (I haven't encountered any overheating problems with my A7RII)

So i wouldn't consider getting a FF 36mp camera, perhaps at $2100, as any slap in the face. Especially if it came without any sensor reflections or overheating problems in any ambient conditions. Just saying...be careful what you wish for Graphs from DXO don't tell the whole story.

No contradiction at all. Here's what I'm trying to say:

As far as rumors (or even an official but sparse announcement) is concerned, 36 is just a number.

The sensor could still be the oldest and worst 36 MP sensor, or it could be the newest and best 36 MP sensor. It would be a slap in the face to Pentax if "all" they could get from Sony was leftover A7R sensors. No need to "be careful what I wish for", the D810 sensor is better, hands-down, and has none of the issues we're discussing. Those are all mirrorless issues, IMO.

So, I don't think any of the issues that plagued Sony's older FE cameras are necessarily going to carry over to a sensor given to Pentax, other than the actual sensor's performance. For example the shutter shock was mainly due to the extremely light weight of the camera, and the shutter's lack of finesse, I guess you could say. Or for example the added thicker glass layers that sony put OVER their sensor, since it is a short flange mirrorless ILC, could have been the cause for any weird reflections.

I'm just saying that, whatever sensor they do get, I hope it's got dynamic range and high ISO performance that makes the 645Z a proud older sibling, and the K-3/K-5 proud younger siblings. And if they don't get the newer version of the sensor, they'll be at a disadvantage. Oppositely if they do get the newest possible 36 MP sensor, I firmly believe they won't necessarily face any of the other image quality problems that have been brought up here, nor do I think they'd be at a significant pricing disadvantage compared to say, a Nikon D810. Since as I mentioned Nikon's production cost on this newest camera is low enough for them to offer it "Grey" as low as $2100.

Again, as I said, surely this leaves plenty of room for Pentax to get a cutting-edge, problem-free sensor and still offer it in an affordable package.

---------- Post added 11-22-15 at 12:55 PM ----------

that is an illogical and asinine statement.

you actually think that sony has warehouses full of "oldest, worst 36 MP sensors" just laying around, waiting for some sucker company buy up the stock

you are claiming that pentax engineers are too stupid to know what "oldest, worst 36 MP sensors" are, if such a thing even exists?

stop trolling both sony and pentax.

I'm not trolling, I'm cheering and hoping for the best here!

However, I'm sorry if my over-simplifications are making my assertions sound asinine. I understand that.

There probably isn't just a warehouse shelf full of un-used A7R sensors. However it could still be a matter of which sensor was originally agreed upon, to be stocked / supplied at a later date.

Keep in mind, also, that Sony's product cycle is shorter than two years for their high-res mirrorless flagship. And the Pentax FF has been many years in the making; surely the sensor was decided upon quite a while ago. It could very well be that Sony's original A7R sensor was slated for the Pentax FF, and it is only Pentax' own delays that has caused the camera to arrive later than the D810 and A7R II.

As I've stated elsewhere, one source of my concern in this regard is the K-3 and K-3 II sensor. Pentax seems to have been "stuck" with the same 24 MP sensor from Sony, a sensor that is still less preferable to quite a handful K-5II/s owners actually, based upon real-world results and not laboratory testing. (Although the lab tests do agree with real-world findings, in this case)

Meanwhile, Sony's other buyer of 24 MP APS-C sensors, Nikon, has been swinging for the fences with their latest 24 MP iterations and delivering very impressive results for both dynamic range and high ISO. While the K-3 and K-3 II both lag behind the K-5II for dynamic range and high ISO, (depending on who you talk to) ...Nikon's D5500 and D7200 sensors actually approach / match Nikon's full-frame 24 MP sensors for dynamic range, and surpass all their older (even 12-16 MP) sensors for high ISO.

Either way, please keep in mind that I'm only here because I'm hoping for the best and would really like to own a K-1. (?) If it sounds like I'm being pessimistic, that's just what I personally believe is the best way to push companies to do better; it's not meant to be an insult or a needlessly negative remark.

---------- Post added 11-22-15 at 01:04 PM ----------

Agree. It is likely that each sensor order is a batch process that is undertaken when orders are received. And each batch order probably includes current "best practices". There may also be contract limitations using sensors designed for other companies, like Nikon.

For still photography, i doubt that many can tell the difference between a 42mp shot and 36mp shot. IIRC, the 42mp number had something to do with video specifications, line skipping and all that stuff i don't understand

Ideally, this would be awesome. If the D800 / A7R sensor is simply "gone", and any 36 MP sensor that a factory might put into production will be the latest version.

Kind of like when Doctor Who gets a new "face"? ;-)

However, history doesn't indicate that this is a sure thing. The Nikon D3X came out before the Sony A900, and yet the Sony's images were inferior. I'd guess that Sony was given parameters or standards for fabrication by Nikon themselves, so even though Sony was the one physically making the sensors, they simply couldn't match Nikon's own final performance when ADC and raw processing were all said and done.

Again, I'm hoping for the best here. Regardless of whatever "version" sensor Pentax gets; there's a lot that can be done between when the photons are collected and when the PEF file is written.

[boriscleto]

And it is the answer to the "Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe and Everything" or "What do you get if you multiply six by nine?" or "How many roads must a man walk down?"

The question is "Will we get the Pentax FF before the Guide entry reads 'Was mostly harmless'?"