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11-23-2015, 09:20 AM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
And, what camera you use makes very little difference to the quality of the majority of pictures. technical quality has nothing to do with artistic merit. Many of the folks on this site are caught up in technical quality, and ignore artistic merit. To be a top level photographer, artistic merit is everything, technical quality is an afterthought. They are not the same thing.

What is important as a pro is familiarity with your gear, so that the camera doesn't distract from your process. It doesn't matter what gear. There are small differences. One camera may have the edge in one area, one may have the edge in another. it's certainly nice to have that edge. But once you have a camera you're comfortable with, that's what's important. Your comfort level. You give that up changing systems. It may be weeks before you are comfortable on your new system. That can be cause for concern.

For some reason, when people are going on and on about some perceived improvement, mirrorless whatever... " I really don't give a s&!t about that." Isn't seen as a valid response. But 90% of the time, it's the best response and the only response. It's amazing how much work people will put into trying to convince other people that useless notions mean something. People go on and on 36 MP of 42 MP... what's the most valid response? See above. People go on about 13 EV DR, or 14 EV, what is the response? You guessed it.

What is the response if your picture has no artistic merit? It shouldn't be , "you need a better camera", it should be, "you need to better understand how to use what you have."
Could not agree more Norm!

11-23-2015, 09:20 AM   #197
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I don't see that much tech that Pentax would get from Samsung. The sensors are fine, but they are only worthwhile if they are cheaper than Sony sensors (Pentax isn't going to buy a fab). As for the mirrorless tech, I don't see Pentax going down that route at this point. Maybe down the road, but not at present.
11-23-2015, 09:22 AM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by JanG Quote
I will try to explain it more thoroughly.
Sensor technology:
I am pretty sure that Samsung has some future advancements of the NX1 sensor up their sleeves that now will never see the light of day if not by selling the technology to another camera manufacturer. That this technology exists can be concluded from normal development cycles of let's say 2 to 4 years for cameras. This technology could be anything from a FF BSI sensor to sensors with faster read-out, lower noise, deeper electron wells - nobody of us knows. Ricoh could buy this technology or pay Samsung to finish the development. Ricoh could than let Samsung or any other chip manufacturer do the production of the chip. No need to buy larger parts of Samsungs sensor development department.

With the term "mirrorless technology" I was trying to refer to things like EVF, focusing technology, fast read out for high frame rates for stills and video, wireless technology, energy saving options and so on and so on - all concerning soft- as well as hardware. Again there would be no need to buy e.g. the production line of Samsung cams, neither their sales channels or whatever else that does not belong to development.

It would then depend on Ricoh alone whether they just licensed technology for a camera or bought the whole development group(s) with the intention to strengthen their chip and electronics know-how (as we should not forget that Pentax was an optics company from the very start but chips and electronics will become even more important for future cameras than they already are today).

Again, please keep in mind, this is nothing but an idea of mine. I do not even have the faintest hint that Ricoh has any interest in Samsung or Samsung's technology. But I am sure Samsung would be happy to make some last money with there camera division. And, of course, others could be interested in Samsungs knowledge, too. E.g., Canon for better low ISO DR for their chips.
Thank you for the clarification.

The main problem regarding the "sensor technology" is that AFAIK the sensor division is not for sale (and a separate entity from the camera division). With about 15.2% market share, Samsung is one of the major sensor makers together with Sony (40%) and Omnivision (15.7) - according to this article:
Sony to Acquire Toshiba's Image Sensor Business for $165M, Report Says

As for the rest, I'm not sure how much could be separated on a "camera division". The EVF might be tightly related to other Samsung divisions, by using special OLED technologies; fast read out depends on sensor and memory, as well as a Samsung-developed processor which once again is probably doesn't belong to the camera division.

So the solution remains, IMO, licensing and collaboration with other makers. EVFs can be acquired from e.g. Epson (which provides Olympus and likely others). Processors, from Fujitsu. Sensors, from Sony (or Samsung, if available and competitive - I think Pentax/Ricoh said they're not tied to a single producer).
Buying a camera/whatever division just to acquire technology is going overboard IMO. It should instead be done as a part of a larger level business decision, e.g. to enter the sensor market (which I think is out of Ricoh's scope).

I understand that you're not claiming this buy-out is likely, and just discussing possible implications. I hope I didn't sound accusatory, that wasn't my intention.
11-23-2015, 09:27 AM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
What is the response if your picture has no artistic merit? It shouldn't be , "you need a better camera", it should be, "you need to better understand how to use what you have."
Yep. There is probably NO digital SLR in current production that is so freaking awful that someone somewhere can't produce a great shot with it. Okay? Much as we tout the benefits of "our" system (whatever we believe in), there's nothing out there which is truly, awfully bad. It may be that SOME aspects of improved DSLR technology make it easier for the great mass of amateurs/enthusiasts to produce better pictures than they might otherwise have got (IBIS, high-ISO low-noise performance etc.), or certain types of photographer to excel at what they do (e.g. pixel shift for landscape/architecture). But great composition and an interesting subject have, IMO, the ability to compensate for what some might see as technical defects (lack of tack-sharpness, high grain and so on).

As someone whose professional interest in photography is medical/scientific, I appreciate a tack sharp lens in front of a damn good sensor at low ISO for high IQ edge-to-edge. Technical quality is everything to me, at least in that professional context. My K-5 with the DA35/2.8 delivers. The K-1(?) may deliver better, in which case that (rather than the K-3) is the logical successor. But is it better enough to justify the high price I know it is going to fetch? Who knows? Who cares? I know I WANT it rather than NEED it; my professional interest in photography supplies only part of the justification, and I'm honest enough with myself to admit that.

In the personal sense? I'd have been happy to plug on with my *ist-DL. But it died, and yeah, then I needed another camera, professionally as well as personally. They were ALL better by then, but staying with Pentax made sense and the K-5 was the best at the time. And I appreciate the advantages it brings with it, but to argue that it's made me a better photographer would be a lie - all it's done is to ensure that some of the images I want to capture are more within my capability now. Most of them are for me, and I know it. Artistic merit? Probably not there. Happy memories? Yep, you bet.

11-23-2015, 10:07 AM - 1 Like   #200
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The future growth market for sensor technology is machine vision, not imaging. Imaging is a replacement market. Machine vision is in its infancy. Watch Samsung attempt to dominate machine vision sensors.
11-23-2015, 11:15 AM   #201
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I'd be interested in seeing what Samsung could do for the sensor market, maybe a full-frame sensor somewhere between 36 and 50 megapixels, or both, or even more, who knows. But they could really shake things up if they started offering sensors to the whole market. However I would like to see them fully vetted before just plopping one into a Pentax or Nikon.
11-23-2015, 11:21 AM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The future growth market for sensor technology is machine vision
It depresses me a tad to see the emphasis on robot machine vision, alongside surveillance cameras, facial recognition, drones and drive recorders (dashcams included) in the forward looking business statements of sensor chip companies like Samsung and Socionext. Imaging sensors seem no longer about new ways to encourage creativity and enhance society, but are increasingly about monitoring and control. Slippery slope to Skynet.
11-23-2015, 12:12 PM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
but are increasingly about monitoring and control. Slippery slope to Skynet.
We are already sliding............

11-23-2015, 12:35 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by Catscradle Quote
I 2nd the split focus idea. I've a Katzeye focus screen on my K-3. It has split focusing plus a rule of thirds grid. I don't think Katzeye is in business any longer so I can only hope the Ricoh has it stock on the FF, though in honesty I doubt it.

Split focus would be so great. If you shoot everyday you can probably do without it, but when you dont, or its dark the split focus helps so much! Im excited!
11-23-2015, 12:53 PM - 4 Likes   #205
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Re Samsung possibly exiting the mirrorless camera business: remember that Samsung are used to entering and exiting the ILC market.

1. In 1995 Samsung bought Rollei from Heinrich Mandermann, then owner of a variety of photo companies including Schneider Kreuznach, Beroflex, Praktica and Exakta, hence the links between Samsung and Schneider Kreuznach. They divested Rollei in 1999.

2. In 1997 Samsung launched a manual focus film SLR, the Samsung GX-1 Kenox, known as Samsung SR-4000 outside Korea.



The Samsung GX-Kenox 1 / SR-4000 had a specific mount. Three lenses were proposed:

- 50mm f/1.4
- 28-70mm f/3.5-4.5
- 70-210mm f/4.5-5.6.

These lenses were labelled Samsung in Korea and Schneider Kreuznach for export markets; for instance, the 50mm was a Xenon.

The Kenox GX-1 has had some success in Korea while the SR-4000 sales were poor and the camera ended its business career in discount stores in the United States.

3. During their partnership with Pentax, which began sometimes before January 2006 (announcement of Samsung GX-1S) and ended sometimes between May 2009 (announcement of K-7 with a Samsung sensor) and September 2010 (announcement of K-5 with a Sony sensor), Samsung:

- Cloned the Pentax *ist-DS2, *ist-DL2, K10D and K20D as Samsung GX-1S, GX-1L, GX-10 and GX-20
- Rebadged some Pentax lenses with the Schneider Kreuznach brand name and some names belonging to Schneider (Xenon, Xenogon and so on)
- And provided the Pentax K20D's and K-7's sensors.

4. Samsung announced the NX10 in January 2010 and are said to gradually exit the mirrorless market some six years after.

"History repeats itself." (Thucydides)
11-23-2015, 02:36 PM   #206
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So, 3 days and 14 pages later, I'm back from holidays, but with no other news, sorry!
Thanks for the kind messages about the attacks in Paris. Sad times... We hesitated to cancel hour holidays, but everything was fine !

For the pixels, it's really too early to make a judgment just on that number, so for those who already have Pentax gear, I think that it would be crazy to sell everything now after having waited for so long... It's only a few monthes more now
11-23-2015, 05:12 PM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The future growth market for sensor technology is machine vision, not imaging.
Machine vision, or vision, is part of the imaging market. As are scanners, cameras etc.

It made sense for Ricoh to aquire Pentax because Ricoh was an imaging company already (with their office products).

High end photography / cinematography sensors will remain an important sector however. Because it is the one allowing for the highest per unit cost and most advanced research results applied.

And I wouldn't call it machine vision. Machine vision only is part of the market of machines or devices with integrated cameras. Machine vision is typically only called this way when talking about production machines, typically in the inspection or assembly processes. In the more narrow sense, machine vision is pretty large in Germany and not surprisingly, Zeiss serves this market in a more serious manner than it does the photography market.
11-24-2015, 01:15 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
It depresses me a tad to see the emphasis on robot machine vision, alongside surveillance cameras, facial recognition, drones and drive recorders (dashcams included) in the forward looking business statements of sensor chip companies like Samsung and Socionext. Imaging sensors seem no longer about new ways to encourage creativity and enhance society, but are increasingly about monitoring and control. Slippery slope to Skynet.
This may very well hapen one day (skynet and alike), many scientists agree on that and as a software engineer I don't see anything preventing it.

But for now the devices are not the issue, more the human that use it. And I think it is more likely you get an un autorized photo/video published with you or your children inside from a photographer/videographer than from a surveillance camera. Let's not forget neither paparrazi that are far from new and try to get pcture of anybody a bit famous for money.
11-24-2015, 01:40 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Re Samsung possibly exiting the mirrorless camera business: remember that Samsung are used to entering and exiting the ILC market.

I think Samsung won't leave camera business - they will stay in Korea and Asian markets, maybe Russia, but leave European market.
11-24-2015, 03:53 AM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I think Samsung won't leave camera business - they will stay in Korea and Asian markets, maybe Russia, but leave European market.
Why would they leave the European market if they are going to continue manufacturing cameras? Certainly it would be very inexpensive to maintain a small presence with minimal advertising support. That's exactly what Pentax does in the United States, I guess because they don't want to invest much money in growing it. But they still sell cameras here (mostly through a couple of retailers) and still make money.
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