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12-02-2015, 02:59 PM   #361
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Seems that all the discussion of whether it would make sense for Ricoh to acquire either Samsung's technology or even their whole camera department is moot:

Hot rumor! Nikon bought Samsung NX mirrorless tech! - mirrorlessrumors

I quote:

"The past weeks we had long chats with our Samsung sources about the recent shut down rumors. And they told us the reason why Samsung is stopping the camera sales: Nikon acquired all the Samsung NX tech! That acquisition could (I said could!) be made public in January at the CES. As we have been told Samsung will have a major press announcement there."
This would make a lot of sense if true - and it would be a missed opportunity for Pentax. To me it makes so much sense that I more or less take for granted that this rumor is true.
Nikon urgently needed support on the sensor-video-electronics-mirrorless side of technology to remain competitive with Sony and Canon which both cover all aspects of digital camera manufacturing with their companies. With the NX technology Nikon would be on par.
While this would be good news for Nikonians it would be bad news for Pentax and Pentaxians, I worry. It could mean that Pentax will have to accommodate in an even nichier niche if the impact of mirrorless systems in FF / high end cameras continues at the same speed as in the last 2+ years.

Regarding the mount question I am pretty confident that Nikon will keep their own mount as long as technical implications should not make this impossible. They have all the lenses etc. to offer a mirrorless system far superior over Sony's limited one. Everyone invested in Nikon will probably stay loyal with them. Now the task for Canon will be to get their low ISO low DR problem solved and Sony will have to decide whether they still want to become competitive system-wise or whether they should (again) focus on "just" making sensors.

12-02-2015, 03:03 PM - 1 Like   #362
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QuoteOriginally posted by JanG Quote
This would make a lot of sense if true - and it would be a missed opportunity for Pentax. T
If it was ever an opportunity, if the price was great, if they had use for the technology and if they didn't have better plans.
12-02-2015, 03:11 PM   #363
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QuoteOriginally posted by JanG Quote
This would make a lot of sense if true - and it would be a missed opportunity for Pentax. To me it makes so much sense that I more or less take for granted that this rumor is true.
Nikon urgently needed support on the sensor-video-electronics-mirrorless side of technology to remain competitive with Sony and Canon which both cover all aspects of digital camera manufacturing with their companies. With the NX technology Nikon would be on par.
While this would be good news for Nikonians it would be bad news for Pentax and Pentaxians, I worry. It could mean that Pentax will have to accommodate in an even nichier niche if the impact of mirrorless systems in FF / high end cameras continues at the same speed as in the last 2+ years.

Regarding the mount question I am pretty confident that Nikon will keep their own mount as long as technical implications should not make this impossible. They have all the lenses etc. to offer a mirrorless system far superior over Sony's limited one. Everyone invested in Nikon will probably stay loyal with them. Now the task for Canon will be to get their low ISO low DR problem solved and Sony will have to decide whether they still want to become competitive system-wise or whether they should (again) focus on "just" making sensors.
Some how I don't think that Ricoh as parent company is interested in investing heavily in Imaging. This would mean buying NX-DIVISION, developing it further and play like a big boy with advertising Worldwide.
12-02-2015, 03:29 PM   #364
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Probably true, Nicolas and Ron. I hope they have a good business plan for staying niche and optics centered in a market that might see an acceleration like the IT industries in the next years when electronics will become more and more crucial for economic success.

12-02-2015, 04:30 PM   #365
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QuoteOriginally posted by JanG Quote
While this would be good news for Nikonians it would be bad news for Pentax and Pentaxians, I worry..
Huh? Pentax is a (D)SLR manufacturer.

---------- Post added 12-03-15 at 12:31 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by JanG Quote
Probably true, Nicolas and Ron. I hope they have a good business plan for staying niche and optics centered in a market that might see an acceleration like the IT industries in the next years when electronics will become more and more crucial for economic success.
Pentaxes are full of electronics so I don't see the point. I can't see that optics will disappear anytime soon either.
12-02-2015, 04:57 PM   #366
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Pentax is a DSLR manufacturer, yes. But for how long can they limit their activity to this niche? The achievements of Sony and Samsung are based more or less exclusively on their ability to develop new sensors, faster computing, faster pipeline, lower energy consumption and so on. It requires great knowledge in microelectronics and chip design to develop and build cameras like the A7 and the NX series. Pentax neither has this knowledge nor the capacity to design their own chips. If the Nikon rumor is true all three main competitors now own there prerequisites of technical break throughs in electronics. Therefore, Pentax will be in trouble to truly compete with the three big ones at least in the field of mirrorless cams. Of course, FF DSLRs won't die anytime soon, but mirrorless designs will have their share in the FF market. And in this segment Pentax might be just a me too company as I just have explained.
And yes, Pentax cameras are full of electronics. But it is me too electronics not breaking edge technology developed by themselves. And this might not be enough to stay alive in the future. And I am speaking of 5 or ten years here. If true Nikon has just bought Samsung's devision - and for a very good reason. They know that the A7III might be up to the D750 concerning AF. And the A7IV might be able to beat any other existing camera in this field (or the A7V - that is not the point) and shoot at 30 fps full resolution. And at that point, according to dpreview, it will be the one and only best camera on the market and for all purposes in the various models of the A7 series.
No, of course not, optics will not disappear anytime soon. But what will keep a camera competitive will be more an d more the electronics.
12-02-2015, 05:05 PM   #367
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QuoteOriginally posted by JanG Quote
Pentax is a DSLR manufacturer, yes. But for how long can they limit their activity to this niche? The achievements of Sony and Samsung are based more or less exclusively on their ability to develop new sensors, faster computing, faster pipeline, lower energy consumption and so on. It requires great knowledge in microelectronics and chip design to develop and build cameras like the A7 and the NX series. Pentax neither has this knowledge nor the capacity to design their own chips. If the Nikon rumor is true all three main competitors now own there prerequisites of technical break throughs in electronics. Therefore, Pentax will be in trouble to truly compete with the three big ones at least in the field of mirrorless cams. Of course, FF DSLRs won't die anytime soon, but mirrorless designs will have their share in the FF market. And in this segment Pentax might be just a me too company as I just have explained.
And yes, Pentax cameras are full of electronics. But it is me too electronics not breaking edge technology developed by themselves. And this might not be enough to stay alive in the future. And I am speaking of 5 or ten years here. If true Nikon has just bought Samsung's devision - and for a very good reason. They know that the A7III might be up to the D750 concerning AF. And the A7IV might be able to beat any other existing camera in this field (or the A7V - that is not the point) and shoot at 30 fps full resolution. And at that point, according to dpreview, it will be the one and only best camera on the market and for all purposes in the various models of the A7 series.
No, of course not, optics will not disappear anytime soon. But what will keep a camera competitive will be more an d more the electronics.
All is relative.
- The processing power and advenced electronics included in a smartphone is much more advenced than in any camera. Even the a cheap smartphone beat the most advenced mirrorless here. In particular for the price. Electronics doesn't hold its value.
- DSLR have great autonomy this is because they consume less power and can have bigger batteries because they are bigger. This is not a problem for such devices.
- A7 & NX series camera are even more niche than Pentax. What sell mirorless are m4/3 or Sony APSC mirorless.
- Samsung sensor in NX was no better despite being BSI. It didn't shine.
- Sony concentrate on sensor and miss the point to get great ergonomics. When the most basic camera out there more than fit the bill and a 400€ APSC has already a 24MP that does lot of FPS, great video (with a video lens) and perform well at high iso, electronics might not be the primary factor for a great camera anymore.
12-02-2015, 05:21 PM   #368
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QuoteOriginally posted by JanG Quote
No, of course not, optics will not disappear anytime soon. But what will keep a camera competitive will be more an d more the electronics.
But electronics is a commodity. Almost no one who makes products containing lots of electronics makes the circuitry and parts themselves. Chip and parts manufacturers seek customers and are rarely involved in the end product.

12-02-2015, 05:34 PM   #369
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
All is relative.
- The processing power and advenced electronics included in a smartphone is much more advenced than in any camera. Even the a cheap smartphone beat the most advenced mirrorless here. In particular for the price. Electronics doesn't hold its value.
- DSLR have great autonomy this is because they consume less power and can have bigger batteries because they are bigger. This is not a problem for such devices.
- A7 & NX series camera are even more niche than Pentax. What sell mirorless are m4/3 or Sony APSC mirorless.
- Samsung sensor in NX was no better despite being BSI. It didn't shine.
- Sony concentrate on sensor and miss the point to get great ergonomics. When the most basic camera out there more than fit the bill and a 400€ APSC has already a 24MP that does lot of FPS, great video (with a video lens) and perform well at high iso, electronics might not be the primary factor for a great camera anymore.
I disagree. To reply to your points:
1. If electronics does not hold its value and is replaced every half year Pentax better should be on the forefront to remain competitive.
2. DSLRs also are heavier. And electronics has a lot of headroom. Have you ever seen the internals of an iPad? There is about 10% chips the rest is battery. There may be quite some space to use for larger batteries in mirrorless cams.
3. Reportedly, Sony is giving up APS-C and developing a cheap entry FF mirrorless. Should Pentax reply with an APS-C DSLR to be competitive price-wise?
4. Not better, but neither was it worse than the best on the market. Plus the NX can fire at 15 fps, has excellent 4K etc. Any competitors?
5. Yes, Sony focused on the sensor and somewhat missed on the usability and the system. Samsung did not miss on the usability but on the system. Nikon won't on either. Concerning the price: when an APS-C DSLR for 400 € will be great in the near future you will probably get the same specs in a mirrorless for 200 €. Why? Because it has only about 125 screws compared with 300+ in an DSLR. Especially in the low cost entry models the price will rule - and there is little hope DSLR designs will proof competitive here, e.g., they will need a PDAF system while the mirrorless will just make use of its sensor. In expensive cameras this might not be important but in entry models with low margins it will be crucial.

---------- Post added 12-03-2015 at 01:41 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But electronics is a commodity. Almost no one who makes products containing lots of electronics makes the circuitry and parts themselves. Chip and parts manufacturers seek customers and are rarely involved in the end product.
But you will need cutting edge technology to remain competitive. Sony has it all in their own company: EVF, sensor, memory etc. Pentax and Nikon already have to wait for half a year to use the 42 MP sensor. What will be in the future? The market is concentrating. How many manufacturers of the electronic parts will stay in the game when the big three decide to use just their own resources? The big ones may not need third party chips and electronics anymore. Pentax will.
12-02-2015, 07:33 PM   #370
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I don't believe in your vertical integration theory... even Canon is now openly outsourcing sensors...
I don't think Pentax would have gained anything but breakdown indebtment in the presumed Samsung/Nikon deal.
I don't think buying an APS-C crippled mount is a good idea for Nikon either.
I think - if that deal is confirmed - Nikon is acting under panicking shareholder's pressure, rather than after reasonnable business-modeling and business-vision.
The drawbacks of a new mount (sales cannibalism, R&D dispersion, production conflicts,...) seem heavier than the potential avantages (marketshare expansion for Nikon) : don't forget even MILC volumes are diminishing on the world market.
Time will tell, but MILC could be a short blossoming spring in the photog mass-market, let alone profesionnal and enthousiast photog market.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 12-02-2015 at 07:47 PM.
12-02-2015, 08:14 PM   #371
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All of this part of the discussion hinges on exactly what is meant by "Nikon acquired all the Samsung NX tech". "Tech" - such an overused word, to the point where it hardly has any meaning anymore. In this context, it could mean anything from the rights to buy Samsung's own chips to the whole fabrication plant. I'm guessing it means Samsung's own IP associated with the NX series of cameras, though quite why Nikon would want to do that eludes me as, like Ricoh, they seem perfectly capable of developing their own. Of course, there may be some better information available somewhere, about this, so we'll see what it means.
12-03-2015, 03:37 AM   #372
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I think the rumor is fake to promote a brand new forum which, what an accident, is started the same day by the same poster.

If turning out correct, it would make most sense as a deal for exclusive supply of Samsung NX sensor tech (full frame assumed) to Nikon, in return to drop Sony and buy NX patents. Nikon may not have paid a cent then. I don't see Korean engineers move to Japan or Nikon support the NX mount or lenses. NX is dead, one way or another. It won't even imply a Nikon mirrorless.

If Samsung closes the NX camera division, they got a problem: What to do with the sensor department which continues to be required for smartphones? Best would be to find a customer for the sensors. Difficult against Sony, so why not add a few NX patents to the deal?

That's the only way I see which makes sense. And wouldn't help Nikon. Samsung will stop R&D on large size sensors and soon Sony will clearly have taken a lead. Maybe with Canon as rheir new customer. A new reversed world ... (Remember Pentax with Samsung sensor )

Last edited by falconeye; 12-03-2015 at 03:49 AM.
12-03-2015, 03:58 AM   #373
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People making up "rumors" would not go as far as to separate between a camera division and a sensor division, nor to think of any possible issue. Nikon would just magically continue the NX system regardless if it makes sense for them to do so or not (and it's obviously a lost opportunity for Pentax, which is even more doomed than before)

"Somebody has been spreading false/made-up reports/rumors in the past few months and several websites have fallen for it by reporting it online as news coming from a "new source". I know for fact that those are 100% fabricated stories by the same individual(s). I would be very careful with anything you've seen online in the past few months. CanonRumors also reported on that few weeks ago."
http://nikonrumors.com/2015/12/02/10-reasons-why-nikon-acquiring-samsungs-ca...-any-sense.asp

We had occurrences of fake rumors, last one quite recently. So far I have no reason to believe this "rumor".
12-03-2015, 04:36 AM   #374
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QuoteOriginally posted by JanG Quote
Probably true, Nicolas and Ron. I hope they have a good business plan for staying niche and optics centered in a market that might see an acceleration like the IT industries in the next years when electronics will become more and more crucial for economic success.
FWIW: Ricoh openly stated they wanted to become the #3 imaging brand.
12-03-2015, 04:54 AM   #375
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
People making up "rumors" would not go as far as to separate between a camera division and a sensor division, nor to think of any possible issue. Nikon would just magically continue the NX system regardless if it makes sense for them to do so or not (and it's obviously a lost opportunity for Pentax, which is even more doomed than before)

"Somebody has been spreading false/made-up reports/rumors in the past few months and several websites have fallen for it by reporting it online as news coming from a "new source". I know for fact that those are 100% fabricated stories by the same individual(s). I would be very careful with anything you've seen online in the past few months. CanonRumors also reported on that few weeks ago."
http://nikonrumors.com/2015/12/02/10-reasons-why-nikon-acquiring-samsungs-ca...-any-sense.asp

We had occurrences of fake rumors, last one quite recently. So far I have no reason to believe this "rumor".
Also we have this "official" denial news now: amateur photographer
So probably it is time to stop the Nikon discussion.

The question whether it would be a good idea for Pentax to seek cooperation with / buy resources from an electronics company remains open, though. At least in my humble opinion it indeed would be a wise step.

---------- Post added 12-03-2015 at 01:02 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
FWIW: Ricoh openly stated they wanted to become the #3 imaging brand.
Yes, and I think that does imply that Pentax within Ricoh has to become much more of an electronics company than it is right now - whether by internal knowledge transfer or by external acquisitions. Samsung tech still looks like an opportunity to me.
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