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11-21-2015, 12:38 AM   #106
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Me, I hope they keep the crop modes simple - full-time full frame, full-time Pentax APS-C, lens-determined (default to APS-C when a DA lens is detected, else default to full frame). If they do anything else, I hope they have inserted the ability to move the sensor along the film axis to correct registry distance for non-Pentax lenses. Then and only then they can put in options for Nikon and Canon crop modes.

11-21-2015, 12:55 AM - 1 Like   #107
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Please Ricoh keep the 4 : 5 crop, thank you.
11-21-2015, 12:57 AM - 3 Likes   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by gedasst Quote
If Pentax really will use 36Mpix CMOS sensor in new FF, I'll say "good bye, Pentax", and buy some other brand FF with NO MORE, than 20Mpix.
Your association of pixel size with image quality is mistaken.

Have a look at this article on "The effect of pixel size on noise" on DPReview.

Yes, at very high ISO settings, the A7s images look less noisy but I guess the differences are nowhere near as big as you thought they should be between 12MP and 36MP.

The difference would be even less, if the comparison did not involve a camera (the A7s) that was specifically designed to excel at high ISO, probably causing some compromise regarding dynamic range and showing a non-linear behaviour in high ISO response.

Don't just look at the noise, but also note how vastly better the 36MP images look like with respect to the text detail, even when downscaled to 12MP. There is no question for me, which of those sensors I prefer.

It sounds like that you may have been comparing different sensors at different magnification levels, i.e., at 100%. This is not what happens in reality when you look at two prints of the same size, for instance. In all sensible comparisons (whether involving prints or monitor displays), the higher MP image needs to be downsized (or the lower MP image be upscaled) which has a significant effect on image noise.

BTW, many low MP count cameras have good reasons for keeping the MP count low, such as allowing a higher framerate when shooting sports (Nikon D4) or being able to read out the full sensor for video without line skipping (Sony A7s). I don't think any very small amount of noise reduction that could come from keeping the MP count low would be sufficient to still sell the camera next to higher MP competition, as higher MPs sensors have their own advantages and the noise difference would just not be significant enough.

Last edited by Class A; 11-21-2015 at 03:49 AM.
11-21-2015, 03:58 AM - 1 Like   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by gedasst Quote
8 years with Pentax - 4x APS-C DSLR's, 7x SLR's, hundreds of different tested, cleaned and repaired FA/DA/M/K/M42 lenses and hours in Lithuanian/Worldwide forums, protecting superior quality of Pentax optics and picture...

And now... ???

If Pentax really will use 36Mpix CMOS sensor in new FF, I'll say "good bye, Pentax", and buy some other brand FF with NO MORE, than 20Mpix.
Man, let's be clear... On the grand schemes of things the camera with the more MP tend to perform better. This is what happen in practice.

You can do what you want in the end, of course and the most important is that you are convinced that what you buy is great because all camera are good enough anyway.

But if you are the Pentax lover you pretend to be, it would be a bit stupid to change brands etc just because you don't get how the stuff is really working.

11-21-2015, 06:35 AM - 1 Like   #110
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The first derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax: "As an online discussion of Pentax grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving FF approaches 1."

The second derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax FF. "As an online discussion of Pentax FF grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Mp approaches 1."

When the FF is released the possible outcomes are binary:
  1. Forum postings decline precipitously
  2. Discussion of Mp of the (mid-range, low-end, K-1II) next FF will begin.

Last edited by monochrome; 11-21-2015 at 07:35 AM.
11-21-2015, 06:49 AM   #111
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11-21-2015, 10:19 AM - 1 Like   #112
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Ricoh shoudl satisfy every one demands. i for 36+mps but many are for 24mps .
it is easy way to keep both teams happy.
first release the flagship one with all new features and after 2 months give the other team what they hope.
both cameras have theie audience and fans. both will sell more lenses and keep some pentax lovers at the pentax camp.
11-21-2015, 10:35 AM   #113
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I doubt we will see any new FF cameras under 24MP. Its just how technology is going. Canikon, Sony have some low-MP FF cameras, but I doubt Canikon will continue this trend. Sony can afford to do experiments like A7s, but even this will change if its sensor division gets split.

Pentax has to play the game. Even though some would be happy with 18MP FF, many wanted 40+.

11-21-2015, 10:50 AM - 2 Likes   #114
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Every one, you say? Let's start with the pixel counts, 12, 16, 24, 36 and 42 - I'm reasonable here, I'm only mentioning sensors which are used on other cameras (and all values were mentioned at some point). So we start from 5.
Now, it must be a DSLR and a MILC, scratch that, DSLR, K-mount MILC, Leica M mount and a new - modern - mount MILC; because those were demanded. 20.
For each of those, they must make an inexpensive, mid-range and pro-beast (a lousy summary of a more extensive "how much would you pay for" poll). 60.
And of course, in all sizes - let's say no larger than the MX, K-3-sized, a bit larger than the K-3 is fine, make it large with an integrated grip. 240.
Modern interface extreme version vs. modern Pentax interface vs. retro-styled vs. true retro. 960.
Lightning-fast AF vs. reasonable improvements vs. just use the K-3's to make it cheaper vs. no AF at all. 3840.
And note that I'm far from covering "every one demands".

"Is it easy way", you said. Yeah, I agree. Ricoh Imaging should just make several cameras for each of us., and maybe we'll choose one
11-21-2015, 11:37 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Every one, you say? Let's start with the pixel counts, 12, 16, 24, 36 and 42 - I'm reasonable here, I'm only mentioning sensors which are used on other cameras (and all values were mentioned at some point). So we start from 5.
Now, it must be a DSLR and a MILC, scratch that, DSLR, K-mount MILC, Leica M mount and a new - modern - mount MILC; because those were demanded. 20.
For each of those, they must make an inexpensive, mid-range and pro-beast (a lousy summary of a more extensive "how much would you pay for" poll). 60.
And of course, in all sizes - let's say no larger than the MX, K-3-sized, a bit larger than the K-3 is fine, make it large with an integrated grip. 240.
Modern interface extreme version vs. modern Pentax interface vs. retro-styled vs. true retro. 960.
Lightning-fast AF vs. reasonable improvements vs. just use the K-3's to make it cheaper vs. no AF at all. 3840.
And note that I'm far from covering "every one demands".

"Is it easy way", you said. Yeah, I agree. Ricoh Imaging should just make several cameras for each of us., and maybe we'll choose one
when i referd to evey one demands i meant every pentaxian who wants pentax full frame not any other brand. who will buy it not those who will complain only. i meant every real pentaxian like me.
11-21-2015, 11:56 AM - 1 Like   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
@ gedasst : i suggest you take 10 minutes to read this blog, posted yesterday by one of our members, before changing your mind on sensor resolution :

Sony A7r II vs Pentax 645Z vs Canon 5dmk III ? | Photographer Gareth Iwan Jones |
It was enough of 2 minutes - pixel peeping in good light...
Come on!
This comparison good for my wife and my 10 years old son
11-21-2015, 11:58 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The first derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax: "As an online discussion of Pentax grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving FF approaches 1."

The second derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax FF. "As an online discussion of Pentax FF grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Mp approaches 1."

When the FF is released the possible outcomes are binary:
  1. Forum postings decline precipitously
  2. Discussion of Mp of the (mid-range, low-end, K-1II) next FF will begin.
Unfortunately the current US political environment has rendered Godwin quite dead...
11-21-2015, 11:59 AM - 3 Likes   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by gedasst Quote
Use HIGH ISO 3200-6400 in really low light on different WB, than compare 16-20Mpix FF sensors with 36-50Mpix sensors and show to me results. Pleace, pleace, pleace...
Or maybe ask some of us that works 90% in High ISO! real time use is way better then lame testing at home IMO.
11-21-2015, 12:02 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by gedasst Quote
Use HIGH ISO 3200-6400 in really low light on different WB, than compare 16-20Mpix FF sensors with 36-50Mpix sensors and show to me results. Pleace, pleace, pleace...
Look for a D4s (16mp) vs D810 (36mp) comparison.
Here the D810 has a slight edge in almost everything and the D4s has a very slight edge in high ISO:
Nikon D4s vs Nikon D810

Anyway what is pleace?
11-21-2015, 12:03 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
I doubt we will see any new FF cameras under 24MP. Its just how technology is going. Canikon, Sony have some low-MP FF cameras, but I doubt Canikon will continue this trend. Sony can afford to do experiments like A7s, but even this will change if its sensor division gets split.

Pentax has to play the game. Even though some would be happy with 18MP FF, many wanted 40+.
The D4 is almost 4 years old now. The D5 has to be coming soon...
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