Some FF news

pathdoc · 11-21-2015, 12:38 AM

Me, I hope they keep the crop modes simple - full-time full frame, full-time Pentax APS-C, lens-determined (default to APS-C when a DA lens is detected, else default to full frame). If they do anything else, I hope they have inserted the ability to move the sensor along the film axis to correct registry distance for non-Pentax lenses. Then and only then they can put in options for Nikon and Canon crop modes.

thibs · 11-21-2015, 12:55 AM - **1 Like**

Please Ricoh keep the 4 : 5 crop, thank you.

Class A · 11-21-2015, 12:57 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by gedasst

If Pentax really will use 36Mpix CMOS sensor in new FF, I'll say "good bye, Pentax", and buy some other brand FF with NO MORE, than 20Mpix.

Your association of pixel size with image quality is mistaken.

Have a look at this article on "The effect of pixel size on noise" on DPReview.

Yes, at very high ISO settings, the A7s images look less noisy but I guess the differences are nowhere near as big as you thought they should be between 12MP and 36MP.

The difference would be even less, if the comparison did not involve a camera (the A7s) that was specifically designed to excel at high ISO, probably causing some compromise regarding dynamic range and showing a non-linear behaviour in high ISO response.

Don't just look at the noise, but also note how vastly better the 36MP images look like with respect to the text detail, even when downscaled to 12MP. There is no question for me, which of those sensors I prefer.

It sounds like that you may have been comparing different sensors at different magnification levels, i.e., at 100%. This is not what happens in reality when you look at two prints of the same size, for instance. In all sensible comparisons (whether involving prints or monitor displays), the higher MP image needs to be downsized (or the lower MP image be upscaled) which has a significant effect on image noise.

BTW, many low MP count cameras have good reasons for keeping the MP count low, such as allowing a higher framerate when shooting sports (Nikon D4) or being able to read out the full sensor for video without line skipping (Sony A7s). I don't think any very small amount of noise reduction that could come from keeping the MP count low would be sufficient to still sell the camera next to higher MP competition, as higher MPs sensors have their own advantages and the noise difference would just not be significant enough.

Nicolas06 · 11-21-2015, 03:58 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by gedasst

8 years with Pentax - 4x APS-C DSLR's, 7x SLR's, hundreds of different tested, cleaned and repaired FA/DA/M/K/M42 lenses and hours in Lithuanian/Worldwide forums, protecting superior quality of Pentax optics and picture...

And now... ???

If Pentax really will use 36Mpix CMOS sensor in new FF, I'll say "good bye, Pentax", and buy some other brand FF with NO MORE, than 20Mpix.

Man, let's be clear... On the grand schemes of things the camera with the more MP tend to perform better. This is what happen in practice.

You can do what you want in the end, of course and the most important is that you are convinced that what you buy is great because all camera are good enough anyway.

But if you are the Pentax lover you pretend to be, it would be a bit stupid to change brands etc just because you don't get how the stuff is really working.

**monochrome** · 11-21-2015, 06:35 AM - **1 Like**

The first derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax: "As an online discussion of Pentax grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving FF approaches 1."

The second derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax FF. "As an online discussion of Pentax FF grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Mp approaches 1."

When the FF is released the possible outcomes are binary:

Forum postings decline precipitously
Discussion of Mp of the (mid-range, low-end, K-1II) next FF will begin.

**luftfluss** · 11-21-2015, 06:49 AM

You Tube

zmohie · 11-21-2015, 10:19 AM - **1 Like**

Ricoh shoudl satisfy every one demands. i for 36+mps but many are for 24mps .
it is easy way to keep both teams happy.
first release the flagship one with all new features and after 2 months give the other team what they hope.
both cameras have theie audience and fans. both will sell more lenses and keep some pentax lovers at the pentax camp.

Na Horuk · 11-21-2015, 10:35 AM

I doubt we will see any new FF cameras under 24MP. Its just how technology is going. Canikon, Sony have some low-MP FF cameras, but I doubt Canikon will continue this trend. Sony can afford to do experiments like A7s, but even this will change if its sensor division gets split.

Pentax has to play the game. Even though some would be happy with 18MP FF, many wanted 40+.

Kunzite · 11-21-2015, 10:50 AM - **2 Likes**

Every one, you say? Let's start with the pixel counts, 12, 16, 24, 36 and 42 - I'm reasonable here, I'm only mentioning sensors which are used on other cameras (and all values were mentioned at some point). So we start from 5.
Now, it must be a DSLR and a MILC, scratch that, DSLR, K-mount MILC, Leica M mount and a new - modern - mount MILC; because those were demanded. 20.
For each of those, they must make an inexpensive, mid-range and pro-beast (a lousy summary of a more extensive "how much would you pay for" poll). 60.
And of course, in all sizes - let's say no larger than the MX, K-3-sized, a bit larger than the K-3 is fine, make it large with an integrated grip. 240.
Modern interface extreme version vs. modern Pentax interface vs. retro-styled vs. true retro. 960.
Lightning-fast AF vs. reasonable improvements vs. just use the K-3's to make it cheaper vs. no AF at all. 3840.
And note that I'm far from covering "every one demands".

"Is it easy way", you said. Yeah, I agree. Ricoh Imaging should just make several cameras for each of us., and maybe we'll choose one

zmohie · 11-21-2015, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Every one, you say? Let's start with the pixel counts, 12, 16, 24, 36 and 42 - I'm reasonable here, I'm only mentioning sensors which are used on other cameras (and all values were mentioned at some point). So we start from 5.
Now, it must be a DSLR and a MILC, scratch that, DSLR, K-mount MILC, Leica M mount and a new - modern - mount MILC; because those were demanded. 20.
For each of those, they must make an inexpensive, mid-range and pro-beast (a lousy summary of a more extensive "how much would you pay for" poll). 60.
And of course, in all sizes - let's say no larger than the MX, K-3-sized, a bit larger than the K-3 is fine, make it large with an integrated grip. 240.
Modern interface extreme version vs. modern Pentax interface vs. retro-styled vs. true retro. 960.
Lightning-fast AF vs. reasonable improvements vs. just use the K-3's to make it cheaper vs. no AF at all. 3840.
And note that I'm far from covering "every one demands".

"Is it easy way", you said. Yeah, I agree. Ricoh Imaging should just make several cameras for each of us., and maybe we'll choose one

when i referd to evey one demands i meant every pentaxian who wants pentax full frame not any other brand. who will buy it not those who will complain only. i meant every real pentaxian like me.

gedasst · 11-21-2015, 11:56 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Zygonyx

@ gedasst : i suggest you take 10 minutes to read this blog, posted yesterday by one of our members, before changing your mind on sensor resolution :

Sony A7r II vs Pentax 645Z vs Canon 5dmk III ? | Photographer Gareth Iwan Jones |

It was enough of 2 minutes - pixel peeping in good light...
Come on!
This comparison good for my wife and my 10 years old son

**boriscleto** · 11-21-2015, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

The first derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax: "As an online discussion of Pentax grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving FF approaches 1."

The second derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax FF. "As an online discussion of Pentax FF grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Mp approaches 1."

When the FF is released the possible outcomes are binary:

Forum postings decline precipitously
Discussion of Mp of the (mid-range, low-end, K-1II) next FF will begin.

Unfortunately the current US political environment has rendered Godwin quite dead...

kenspo · 11-21-2015, 11:59 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by gedasst

Use HIGH ISO 3200-6400 in really low light on different WB, than compare 16-20Mpix FF sensors with 36-50Mpix sensors and show to me results. Pleace, pleace, pleace...

Or maybe ask some of us that works 90% in High ISO! real time use is way better then lame testing at home IMO.

bertwert · 11-21-2015, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by gedasst

Use HIGH ISO 3200-6400 in really low light on different WB, than compare 16-20Mpix FF sensors with 36-50Mpix sensors and show to me results. Pleace, pleace, pleace...

Look for a D4s (16mp) vs D810 (36mp) comparison.
Here the D810 has a slight edge in almost everything and the D4s has a very slight edge in high ISO:
Nikon D4s vs Nikon D810

Anyway what is pleace?

**boriscleto** · 11-21-2015, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Na Horuk

I doubt we will see any new FF cameras under 24MP. Its just how technology is going. Canikon, Sony have some low-MP FF cameras, but I doubt Canikon will continue this trend. Sony can afford to do experiments like A7s, but even this will change if its sensor division gets split.

Pentax has to play the game. Even though some would be happy with 18MP FF, many wanted 40+.

The D4 is almost 4 years old now. The D5 has to be coming soon...

11-21-2015, 12:57 AM - 3 Likes	#108
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by gedasst If Pentax really will use 36Mpix CMOS sensor in new FF, I'll say "good bye, Pentax", and buy some other brand FF with NO MORE, than 20Mpix. Your association of pixel size with image quality is mistaken. Have a look at this article on "The effect of pixel size on noise" on DPReview. Yes, at very high ISO settings, the A7s images look less noisy but I guess the differences are nowhere near as big as you thought they should be between 12MP and 36MP. The difference would be even less, if the comparison did not involve a camera (the A7s) that was specifically designed to excel at high ISO, probably causing some compromise regarding dynamic range and showing a non-linear behaviour in high ISO response. Don't just look at the noise, but also note how vastly better the 36MP images look like with respect to the text detail, even when downscaled to 12MP. There is no question for me, which of those sensors I prefer. It sounds like that you may have been comparing different sensors at different magnification levels, i.e., at 100%. This is not what happens in reality when you look at two prints of the same size, for instance. In all sensible comparisons (whether involving prints or monitor displays), the higher MP image needs to be downsized (or the lower MP image be upscaled) which has a significant effect on image noise. BTW, many low MP count cameras have good reasons for keeping the MP count low, such as allowing a higher framerate when shooting sports (Nikon D4) or being able to read out the full sensor for video without line skipping (Sony A7s). I don't think any very small amount of noise reduction that could come from keeping the MP count low would be sufficient to still sell the camera next to higher MP competition, as higher MPs sensors have their own advantages and the noise difference would just not be significant enough. Last edited by Class A; 11-21-2015 at 03:49 AM.

11-21-2015, 06:35 AM - 1 Like	#110
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	The first derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax: "As an online discussion of Pentax grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving FF approaches 1." The second derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax FF. "As an online discussion of Pentax FF grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Mp approaches 1." When the FF is released the possible outcomes are binary: Forum postings decline precipitously Discussion of Mp of the (mid-range, low-end, K-1II) next FF will begin. Last edited by monochrome; 11-21-2015 at 07:35 AM.

11-21-2015, 11:58 AM	#117
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by monochrome The first derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax: "As an online discussion of Pentax grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving FF approaches 1." The second derivative of Godwin's Law, for Pentax FF. "As an online discussion of Pentax FF grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Mp approaches 1." When the FF is released the possible outcomes are binary: Forum postings decline precipitously Discussion of Mp of the (mid-range, low-end, K-1II) next FF will begin. Unfortunately the current US political environment has rendered Godwin quite dead...

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11-21-2015, 12:38 AM	#106
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	Me, I hope they keep the crop modes simple - full-time full frame, full-time Pentax APS-C, lens-determined (default to APS-C when a DA lens is detected, else default to full frame). If they do anything else, I hope they have inserted the ability to move the sensor along the film axis to correct registry distance for non-Pentax lenses. Then and only then they can put in options for Nikon and Canon crop modes.

11-21-2015, 12:55 AM - 1 Like	#107
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Please Ricoh keep the 4 : 5 crop, thank you.

11-21-2015, 03:58 AM - 1 Like	#109
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by gedasst 8 years with Pentax - 4x APS-C DSLR's, 7x SLR's, hundreds of different tested, cleaned and repaired FA/DA/M/K/M42 lenses and hours in Lithuanian/Worldwide forums, protecting superior quality of Pentax optics and picture... And now... ??? If Pentax really will use 36Mpix CMOS sensor in new FF, I'll say "good bye, Pentax", and buy some other brand FF with NO MORE, than 20Mpix. Man, let's be clear... On the grand schemes of things the camera with the more MP tend to perform better. This is what happen in practice. You can do what you want in the end, of course and the most important is that you are convinced that what you buy is great because all camera are good enough anyway. But if you are the Pentax lover you pretend to be, it would be a bit stupid to change brands etc just because you don't get how the stuff is really working.

11-21-2015, 10:19 AM - 1 Like	#112
zmohie Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: egypt Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 435	Ricoh shoudl satisfy every one demands. i for 36+mps but many are for 24mps . it is easy way to keep both teams happy. first release the flagship one with all new features and after 2 months give the other team what they hope. both cameras have theie audience and fans. both will sell more lenses and keep some pentax lovers at the pentax camp.

11-21-2015, 10:35 AM	#113
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	I doubt we will see any new FF cameras under 24MP. Its just how technology is going. Canikon, Sony have some low-MP FF cameras, but I doubt Canikon will continue this trend. Sony can afford to do experiments like A7s, but even this will change if its sensor division gets split. Pentax has to play the game. Even though some would be happy with 18MP FF, many wanted 40+.

11-21-2015, 10:50 AM - 2 Likes	#114
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Every one, you say? Let's start with the pixel counts, 12, 16, 24, 36 and 42 - I'm reasonable here, I'm only mentioning sensors which are used on other cameras (and all values were mentioned at some point). So we start from 5. Now, it must be a DSLR and a MILC, scratch that, DSLR, K-mount MILC, Leica M mount and a new - modern - mount MILC; because those were demanded. 20. For each of those, they must make an inexpensive, mid-range and pro-beast (a lousy summary of a more extensive "how much would you pay for" poll). 60. And of course, in all sizes - let's say no larger than the MX, K-3-sized, a bit larger than the K-3 is fine, make it large with an integrated grip. 240. Modern interface extreme version vs. modern Pentax interface vs. retro-styled vs. true retro. 960. Lightning-fast AF vs. reasonable improvements vs. just use the K-3's to make it cheaper vs. no AF at all. 3840. And note that I'm far from covering "every one demands". "Is it easy way", you said. Yeah, I agree. Ricoh Imaging should just make several cameras for each of us., and maybe we'll choose one

11-21-2015, 11:37 AM	#115
zmohie Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: egypt Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 435	Originally posted by Kunzite Every one, you say? Let's start with the pixel counts, 12, 16, 24, 36 and 42 - I'm reasonable here, I'm only mentioning sensors which are used on other cameras (and all values were mentioned at some point). So we start from 5. Now, it must be a DSLR and a MILC, scratch that, DSLR, K-mount MILC, Leica M mount and a new - modern - mount MILC; because those were demanded. 20. For each of those, they must make an inexpensive, mid-range and pro-beast (a lousy summary of a more extensive "how much would you pay for" poll). 60. And of course, in all sizes - let's say no larger than the MX, K-3-sized, a bit larger than the K-3 is fine, make it large with an integrated grip. 240. Modern interface extreme version vs. modern Pentax interface vs. retro-styled vs. true retro. 960. Lightning-fast AF vs. reasonable improvements vs. just use the K-3's to make it cheaper vs. no AF at all. 3840. And note that I'm far from covering "every one demands". "Is it easy way", you said. Yeah, I agree. Ricoh Imaging should just make several cameras for each of us., and maybe we'll choose one when i referd to evey one demands i meant every pentaxian who wants pentax full frame not any other brand. who will buy it not those who will complain only. i meant every real pentaxian like me.

11-21-2015, 11:56 AM - 1 Like	#116
gedasst Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Klaipeda Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 78	Originally posted by Zygonyx @ gedasst : i suggest you take 10 minutes to read this blog, posted yesterday by one of our members, before changing your mind on sensor resolution : Sony A7r II vs Pentax 645Z vs Canon 5dmk III ? \| Photographer Gareth Iwan Jones \| It was enough of 2 minutes - pixel peeping in good light... Come on! This comparison good for my wife and my 10 years old son

11-21-2015, 11:59 AM - 3 Likes	#118
kenspo Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Oslo Posts: 2,207	Originally posted by gedasst Use HIGH ISO 3200-6400 in really low light on different WB, than compare 16-20Mpix FF sensors with 36-50Mpix sensors and show to me results. Pleace, pleace, pleace... Or maybe ask some of us that works 90% in High ISO! real time use is way better then lame testing at home IMO.

11-21-2015, 12:02 PM	#119
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,172	Originally posted by gedasst Use HIGH ISO 3200-6400 in really low light on different WB, than compare 16-20Mpix FF sensors with 36-50Mpix sensors and show to me results. Pleace, pleace, pleace... Look for a D4s (16mp) vs D810 (36mp) comparison. Here the D810 has a slight edge in almost everything and the D4s has a very slight edge in high ISO: Nikon D4s vs Nikon D810 Anyway what is pleace?

11-21-2015, 12:03 PM	#120
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by Na Horuk I doubt we will see any new FF cameras under 24MP. Its just how technology is going. Canikon, Sony have some low-MP FF cameras, but I doubt Canikon will continue this trend. Sony can afford to do experiments like A7s, but even this will change if its sensor division gets split. Pentax has to play the game. Even though some would be happy with 18MP FF, many wanted 40+. The D4 is almost 4 years old now. The D5 has to be coming soon...