Some FF news

rawr · 11-22-2015, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Matthew Saville

The Nikon D3X came out before the Sony A900, and yet the Sony's images were inferior. ...even though Sony was the one physically making the sensors, they simply couldn't match Nikon's own final performance when ADC and raw processing were all said and done.

Which is an important point - sensor + imaging support chips (BIONZ/ Exceed/ Digic/ PRIME etc) - make the package. So 'old' but still very capable 36MP sensor + the newest imaging engine might still produce something noticeably better than a D810 or a A7R for Pentax.

**monochrome** · 11-22-2015, 02:43 PM - **1 Like**

kenspo says this is to be a top-end professional camera - no stinting on components - a Name-Maker.

Infer what you will.

rawr · 11-22-2015, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

no stinting on components

Since they don't make much of their own hardware (sensor, imaging chip, shutter etc), in reality they will be forced to use a lot of stuff everyone else has access to. So they simply can't offer anything that will make it a totally unique, standout product based on components.

But as a long-life professional tool, I guess it makes sense to choose (if their supplier makes it available to them) something like the currently hot new 42MP sensor from Sony in the flagship, just to make sure that the product remains competitive and high-end over a prolonged period.

Winder · 11-22-2015, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by rawr

Since they don't make much of their own hardware (sensor, imaging chip, shutter etc), in reality they will be forced to use a lot of stuff everyone else has access to. So they simply can't offer anything that will be a totally unique, standout product.

But as a long-life professional tool, I guess it makes sense to choose (if their supplier makes it available to them) something like the currently hot new 42MP sensor from Sony in the flagship, just to make sure that the product remains competitive and high-end over a prolonged period.

I believe Ricoh has the capability to make their own image processors and AF modules. Ricoh made the 5A22 processor for the Super Nintendo and they make the processors for their office equipment. Ricoh might have more independence than we know.

**luftfluss** · 11-22-2015, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

FedEx: DOOMED - YouTube

So, if I am understanding things correctly, Pentax - and the rest of us - are not doomed as long as we get our Pentax K-1's delivered via Fedex.

I feel much better now.

rawr · 11-22-2015, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Winder

Ricoh might have more independence than we know.

True. The 86k metering sensor in the K-3 was also Ricoh, and shows that if they need to they can 'grow their own'.

It would certainly be interesting and cool to see them incorporate more 'home-grown' chips and tech in the FF. It will probably cost more, but it would help them stand-out with perhaps unique capabilities and features.

kenspo · 11-22-2015, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Winder

I believe Ricoh has the capability to make their own image processors and AF modules. .

No, not at this moment. But maybe in the future.

dansamy · 11-22-2015, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by kenspo

No, not at this moment. But maybe in the future.

But they have to survive long enough & be competitive long enough & profitable enough to sustain the imaging division for that to ever even be a possibility.

Which means, being last to market with a FF, they've got to knock it out of the park. And they know it.

pathdoc · 11-22-2015, 03:46 PM

Remember that a lot goes on between the sensor and the memory card, whether you are writing RAW or JPG, and all else being equal, that can make or break a camera. It doesn't matter if they got the oldest, worst sensors if Pentax's processing algorithm can make it shine (and you can bet that if Sony were caught deliberately peddling cr*p to Pentax, Ricoh Corporation top brass would not be impressed. Sure, Sony is probably the biggest corporate dog in the yard, but Ricoh is big enough to bite it where it hurts.)

Winder · 11-22-2015, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by kenspo

No, not at this moment. But maybe in the future.

Too bad. I was hoping that some of the delays were due to more in-house development.

Kunzite · 11-22-2015, 05:14 PM

It makes no sense to build their own processors, IMO, as long as they're readily available alternatives; it would be just an unnecessary expense. They would struggle because of very low volumes, and the result won't be necessarily better than those readily available alternatives.

FantasticMrFox · 11-22-2015, 05:16 PM

Canon, with all their money and research power, produce their own sensors and they are crap and leave the photographic community wondering when they will ever come to their senses and start using Toshiba or Sony sensors (I can only assume Canon is saving money that way). Meanwhile Nikon uses Toshiba and Sony sensors and is getting better results.

mee · 11-22-2015, 06:07 PM

Is the sensor in the D810 the bottleneck for anyone? The bottleneck is likely often the photographer...

rawr · 11-22-2015, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

It makes no sense to build their own processors,

Originally posted by FantasticMrFox

Meanwhile Nikon uses Toshiba and Sony sensors and is getting better results.

Agreed. I think Ricoh is not likely to compete with Sony in the imaging sensor business, nor the likes of Fujitsu/Socionext in the imaging engine chip business either. Too much time, money and risk involved. But there is still lots of scope to develop customised, interesting camera hardware around those core systems, and Ricoh certainly has the engineering resources to do that.

Matthew Saville · 11-22-2015, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by rawr

Which is an important point - sensor + imaging support chips (BIONZ/ Exceed/ Digic/ PRIME etc) - make the package. So 'old' but still very capable 36MP sensor + the newest imaging engine might still produce something noticeably better than a D810 or a A7R for Pentax.

This is my current hope, definitely. I don't really need ISO 64 vs ISO 100, (that would be a physical property of the sensor or the ADC chip) ...but I do hope for the best possible dynamic range all across the ISO range, and superb quality in general.

---------- Post added 11-22-15 at 10:26 PM ----------

Originally posted by FantasticMrFox

Canon, with all their money and research power, produce their own sensors and they are crap and leave the photographic community wondering when they will ever come to their senses and start using Toshiba or Sony sensors (I can only assume Canon is saving money that way). Meanwhile Nikon uses Toshiba and Sony sensors and is getting better results.

Thanks for pointing this out, so I didn't have to. ;-)

Getting sensors, or anything else, from the source that produces the best components, is a great way to make the ultimate camera. As long as you work out the kinks. Which is probably why the K-1 is taking so long.

---------- Post added 11-22-15 at 10:38 PM ----------

Originally posted by mee

Is the sensor in the D810 the bottleneck for anyone? The bottleneck is likely often the photographer...

No, it's not a bottleneck, but it is proof that a sensor can be tweaked to the great benefit of certain types of photographers.

I don't know if it is soley related to the tweak to the IR filter, however the D810A has made some huge leaps in the quality of long exposures, and that's something I'd greatly appreciate seeing in more full-frame cameras, period. Just as an example, like I said.

11-22-2015, 03:07 PM	#153
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by monochrome no stinting on components Since they don't make much of their own hardware (sensor, imaging chip, shutter etc), in reality they will be forced to use a lot of stuff everyone else has access to. So they simply can't offer anything that will make it a totally unique, standout product based on components. But as a long-life professional tool, I guess it makes sense to choose (if their supplier makes it available to them) something like the currently hot new 42MP sensor from Sony in the flagship, just to make sure that the product remains competitive and high-end over a prolonged period. Last edited by rawr; 11-22-2015 at 03:15 PM.

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11-22-2015, 02:39 PM	#151
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by Matthew Saville The Nikon D3X came out before the Sony A900, and yet the Sony's images were inferior. ...even though Sony was the one physically making the sensors, they simply couldn't match Nikon's own final performance when ADC and raw processing were all said and done. Which is an important point - sensor + imaging support chips (BIONZ/ Exceed/ Digic/ PRIME etc) - make the package. So 'old' but still very capable 36MP sensor + the newest imaging engine might still produce something noticeably better than a D810 or a A7R for Pentax.

11-22-2015, 02:43 PM - 1 Like	#152
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	kenspo says this is to be a top-end professional camera - no stinting on components - a Name-Maker. Infer what you will.

11-22-2015, 03:16 PM	#154
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by rawr Since they don't make much of their own hardware (sensor, imaging chip, shutter etc), in reality they will be forced to use a lot of stuff everyone else has access to. So they simply can't offer anything that will be a totally unique, standout product. But as a long-life professional tool, I guess it makes sense to choose (if their supplier makes it available to them) something like the currently hot new 42MP sensor from Sony in the flagship, just to make sure that the product remains competitive and high-end over a prolonged period. I believe Ricoh has the capability to make their own image processors and AF modules. Ricoh made the 5A22 processor for the Super Nintendo and they make the processors for their office equipment. Ricoh might have more independence than we know.

11-22-2015, 03:16 PM	#155
luftfluss Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,619	Originally posted by monochrome FedEx: DOOMED - YouTube So, if I am understanding things correctly, Pentax - and the rest of us - are not doomed as long as we get our Pentax K-1's delivered via Fedex. I feel much better now.

11-22-2015, 03:26 PM	#156
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by Winder Ricoh might have more independence than we know. True. The 86k metering sensor in the K-3 was also Ricoh, and shows that if they need to they can 'grow their own'. It would certainly be interesting and cool to see them incorporate more 'home-grown' chips and tech in the FF. It will probably cost more, but it would help them stand-out with perhaps unique capabilities and features.

11-22-2015, 03:33 PM	#157
kenspo Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Oslo Posts: 2,207	Originally posted by Winder I believe Ricoh has the capability to make their own image processors and AF modules. . No, not at this moment. But maybe in the future.

11-22-2015, 03:40 PM	#158
dansamy Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,450	Originally posted by kenspo No, not at this moment. But maybe in the future. But they have to survive long enough & be competitive long enough & profitable enough to sustain the imaging division for that to ever even be a possibility. Which means, being last to market with a FF, they've got to knock it out of the park. And they know it.

11-22-2015, 03:46 PM	#159
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	Remember that a lot goes on between the sensor and the memory card, whether you are writing RAW or JPG, and all else being equal, that can make or break a camera. It doesn't matter if they got the oldest, worst sensors if Pentax's processing algorithm can make it shine (and you can bet that if Sony were caught deliberately peddling cr*p to Pentax, Ricoh Corporation top brass would not be impressed. Sure, Sony is probably the biggest corporate dog in the yard, but Ricoh is big enough to bite it where it hurts.)

11-22-2015, 04:04 PM	#160
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by kenspo No, not at this moment. But maybe in the future. Too bad. I was hoping that some of the delays were due to more in-house development.

11-22-2015, 05:14 PM	#161
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	It makes no sense to build their own processors, IMO, as long as they're readily available alternatives; it would be just an unnecessary expense. They would struggle because of very low volumes, and the result won't be necessarily better than those readily available alternatives.

11-22-2015, 05:16 PM	#162
FantasticMrFox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Munich Posts: 2,339	Canon, with all their money and research power, produce their own sensors and they are crap and leave the photographic community wondering when they will ever come to their senses and start using Toshiba or Sony sensors (I can only assume Canon is saving money that way). Meanwhile Nikon uses Toshiba and Sony sensors and is getting better results.

11-22-2015, 06:07 PM	#163
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Is the sensor in the D810 the bottleneck for anyone? The bottleneck is likely often the photographer...

11-22-2015, 06:21 PM	#164
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by Kunzite It makes no sense to build their own processors, Originally posted by FantasticMrFox Meanwhile Nikon uses Toshiba and Sony sensors and is getting better results. Agreed. I think Ricoh is not likely to compete with Sony in the imaging sensor business, nor the likes of Fujitsu/Socionext in the imaging engine chip business either. Too much time, money and risk involved. But there is still lots of scope to develop customised, interesting camera hardware around those core systems, and Ricoh certainly has the engineering resources to do that.

11-22-2015, 11:23 PM	#165
Matthew Saville Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Southern California Posts: 250	Originally posted by rawr Which is an important point - sensor + imaging support chips (BIONZ/ Exceed/ Digic/ PRIME etc) - make the package. So 'old' but still very capable 36MP sensor + the newest imaging engine might still produce something noticeably better than a D810 or a A7R for Pentax. This is my current hope, definitely. I don't really need ISO 64 vs ISO 100, (that would be a physical property of the sensor or the ADC chip) ...but I do hope for the best possible dynamic range all across the ISO range, and superb quality in general. ---------- Post added 11-22-15 at 10:26 PM ---------- Originally posted by FantasticMrFox Canon, with all their money and research power, produce their own sensors and they are crap and leave the photographic community wondering when they will ever come to their senses and start using Toshiba or Sony sensors (I can only assume Canon is saving money that way). Meanwhile Nikon uses Toshiba and Sony sensors and is getting better results. Thanks for pointing this out, so I didn't have to. ;-) Getting sensors, or anything else, from the source that produces the best components, is a great way to make the ultimate camera. As long as you work out the kinks. Which is probably why the K-1 is taking so long. ---------- Post added 11-22-15 at 10:38 PM ---------- Originally posted by mee Is the sensor in the D810 the bottleneck for anyone? The bottleneck is likely often the photographer... No, it's not a bottleneck, but it is proof that a sensor can be tweaked to the great benefit of certain types of photographers. I don't know if it is soley related to the tweak to the IR filter, however the D810A has made some huge leaps in the quality of long exposures, and that's something I'd greatly appreciate seeing in more full-frame cameras, period. Just as an example, like I said.