Some FF news

ogl · 11-22-2015, 11:50 PM

The real ISO50 or 64 are good. I had used ISO32 and 64 films many years ago...

thibs · 11-23-2015, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Winder

Too bad. I was hoping that some of the delays were due to more in-house development.

Too early IMO.
Technically and on a R&D things, they probably can but it ain't done in a couple months.
If they want it (and they should IMO), they'll do it.

JanG · 11-23-2015, 04:10 AM

Okay, this is an unsubstantiated idea:
We have Samsung (more or less) obviously leaving the bigger sensor camera business with an excellent APS-C size sensor and one of the best mirrorless cams ever built (NX1) going orphan. This might be a great opportunity for Ricoh to license or to fully acquire Samsung's technology. Maybe this could offer Ricoh a golden path into state of the art sensor tech and mirrorless design for future cameras?

Also, has anybody excluded that Sony might be developing a new 36 MP FF sensor? Many of the unique features of the 42 MP sensor are not easy to incorporate into a DSLR. And the main customer of a potential new version of a 36 MP sensor (Nikon) is - like Pentax - not focused on movies. So 42 MP as a basis for exceptional 4K might be of less interest to them than an updated 36 MP sensor with better speed and even more DR?
Just thoughts.

**Rondec** · 11-23-2015, 04:15 AM

If Pentax isn't going to make this camera a video machine then there is no reason not to use a version of the 36 megapixel sensor. The 42 basically increases frame rate slightly, improved video a lot, and added PDAF on the sensor (unnecessary for Pentax's purposes).

As to the analysis of the sensors themselves, they are really pretty close. SNR curves lie right on top of each other meaning that noise should be the same between these cameras. The difference is that at iso 3200 and better the A7r II has 1 EV more dynamic range. And at base iso the D810 has 1 stop more dynamic range. For my style of shooting, I would be completely satisfied with the D810 sensor -- probably more so than the A7r II, particularly, the presence of iso 64.

For all the talk about high iso performance in this thread, Canon sensors are pretty much equal to Sony sensors with regard to high iso performance. If that is what is important, then there is no reason not to go with Canon -- the 6D SNR curve is exactly the same and the dynamic range at iso 800 and above is between D810 and A7r II performance. The issue with Canon's crap sensors is merely that they are significantly worse in low iso dynamic range. But that is not something that most photographers do not maximize anyway. If you are landscape shooter, then maybe a Canon camera isn't best for you, but if you shoot weddings or portraits or even sports, I am sure they would be fine.

Kunzite · 11-23-2015, 04:15 AM

Samsung is closing the camera business because they can't make it work, and you want Ricoh to take that risk?

JanG · 11-23-2015, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Samsung is closing the camera business because they can't make it work, and you want Ricoh to take that risk?

To my knowledge the Samsung cams work excellently. Maybe you should check out the NX1 reviews and forum talk? A lot of high praise there.

Samsung just could not sell enough of their cams due to their lack of a system, their somewhat erratic history concerning large sensor cams, and, probably, they underestimated the time it needs to establish a brand in the high end market. Pentax is established in large sensor photography, they have a system but they lack a high end mirrorless cam (which might be necessary to have in the future if Sony continues at its current pace).
Furthermore, I guess that at least some of the Samsung technology could be got quite cheaply because to sell it is the only way to get some money back of their development costs

kenspo · 11-23-2015, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by JanG

To my knowledge the Samsung cams work excellently.

some of their ambassadors regrets signing for Samsung and use the NX1

Not good enough as others in pro use...

JanG · 11-23-2015, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by kenspo

some of their ambassadors regrets signing for Samsung and use the NX1

Not good enough as others in pro use...

You are sure that is not mainly because Samsung stopped development / lacked a complete system?
I think Samsung has some technological goodies to offer that Ricoh could make excellent use of.

kenspo · 11-23-2015, 05:10 AM

This is 2 months ago..so i dont remember what they said..haha! All ambassadors, talk together when we're meeting on expo's etc..

Same with representatives from brands..I've spoken to both Sony, Nikon and Leica lately!

Winder · 11-23-2015, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by thibs

Too early IMO.
Technically and on a R&D things, they probably can but it ain't done in a couple months.
If they want it (and they should IMO), they'll do it.

I think Ricoh makes the image processor in the GR series, so they have the background in it. The FF has been a couple of years in the making, so it not like they started this last month.

Nicolas06 · 11-23-2015, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

If Pentax isn't going to make this camera a video machine then there is no reason not to use a version of the 36 megapixel sensor. The 42 basically increases frame rate slightly, improved video a lot, and added PDAF on the sensor (unnecessary for Pentax's purposes).

D810 already does better than A7R that use the 36MP sensor. This is more how Nikon manage to get more out of its iso 50 than anything else. Outside iso50 mode, D810 has 0.3EV gain at iso 100, is similar at iso 200 and worse starting iso 400. That's not so great.

The real problem for Pentax to me is the positionning. The best sensor out there is the 42MP BSI sensor. It the one that has the most pixels of Sony FF, the best high iso performance and the dynamic range if it was mounted on a Nikon. Canon has a 50MP sensor but its performance doesn't look so great, so that not big issue.

The Cameras with this 42MP BSI sensor are going to get the top score. The MP show clearly that this isn't the same as a camera announced almost 4 year ago. And for all wedding/action/sport shooter the boost on high iso, even if small is not to ignore.

This is a matter of having the best or not, and in term of positionning, branding and being discussed everywhere this is important.

If Pentax has "only" 36MP it is really important that Nikon doesn't get a 42MP or more on its own and that this is an improved BSI sensor with outstanding performance. If it is just what is in a D810 that was announced 1.5 year ago and very similar to the 4 year old D800, that will not motivate many buyers.

Pentax can decide to not compete on the sensor, even if it allowed its K5 to get lot of great review and sell quite well. But then it remove one argument, it need to have other reasons.

rawr · 11-23-2015, 05:43 AM

As an aside, I wonder when Ricoh are going to add something new to the Pentax.com FF teaser site.

The current design and content of that site - with it's concealment of the FF body design and air of mystery - seems silly now, given that everyone has seen images of the FF body in New York and Paris.

Time to catch up, Ricoh!

Kunzite · 11-23-2015, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by JanG

To my knowledge the Samsung cams work excellently. Maybe you should check out the NX1 reviews and forum talk? A lot of high praise there.

Samsung just could not sell enough of their cams due to their lack of a system, their somewhat erratic history concerning large sensor cams, and, probably, they underestimated the time it needs to establish a brand in the high end market. Pentax is established in large sensor photography, they have a system but they lack a high end mirrorless cam (which might be necessary to have in the future if Sony continues at its current pace).
Furthermore, I guess that at least some of the Samsung technology could be got quite cheaply because to sell it is the only way to get some money back of their development costs

That's not about making one very good camera; actually a flagship which doesn't sell might kill or otherwise put in trouble a camera company. Minolta's 7D, AFAIK, was one such example. The reverse is true: a successful flagship is far from solving a camera division's problems.
The thing is, that Samsung's camera division on the whole is in trouble. Whatever problems they might have, Ricoh Imaging would have to solve them.

FantasticMrFox · 11-23-2015, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

The thing is, that Samsung's camera division on the whole is in trouble. Whatever problems they might have, Ricoh Imaging would have to solve them.

No one has suggested buying Samsung's camera division, the suggestion was buying their technology (e.g. information and patents).

JanG · 11-23-2015, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

That's not about making one very good camera; actually a flagship which doesn't sell might kill or otherwise put in trouble a camera company. Minolta's 7D, AFAIK, was one such example. The reverse is true: a successful flagship is far from solving a camera division's problems.
The thing is, that Samsung's camera division on the whole is in trouble. Whatever problems they might have, Ricoh Imaging would have to solve them.

I think you constantly have in mind I was suggesting that Ricoh should buy Samsung's camera division. But that is NOT what I am proposing. I am just talking about buying technology. So: no, Ricoh would not have to solve Samsung's problems. Ricoh could just acquire some technology (sensor, mirrorless etc.) it might need in the future. This could be an opportunity because Samsung will be in trouble to find a buyer for their technology and to get back their development costs.

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11-22-2015, 11:50 PM	#166
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	The real ISO50 or 64 are good. I had used ISO32 and 64 films many years ago...

11-23-2015, 12:08 AM	#167
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Winder Too bad. I was hoping that some of the delays were due to more in-house development. Too early IMO. Technically and on a R&D things, they probably can but it ain't done in a couple months. If they want it (and they should IMO), they'll do it.

11-23-2015, 04:10 AM	#168
JanG Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Berlin, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 150	Okay, this is an unsubstantiated idea: We have Samsung (more or less) obviously leaving the bigger sensor camera business with an excellent APS-C size sensor and one of the best mirrorless cams ever built (NX1) going orphan. This might be a great opportunity for Ricoh to license or to fully acquire Samsung's technology. Maybe this could offer Ricoh a golden path into state of the art sensor tech and mirrorless design for future cameras? Also, has anybody excluded that Sony might be developing a new 36 MP FF sensor? Many of the unique features of the 42 MP sensor are not easy to incorporate into a DSLR. And the main customer of a potential new version of a 36 MP sensor (Nikon) is - like Pentax - not focused on movies. So 42 MP as a basis for exceptional 4K might be of less interest to them than an updated 36 MP sensor with better speed and even more DR? Just thoughts.

11-23-2015, 04:15 AM	#169
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	If Pentax isn't going to make this camera a video machine then there is no reason not to use a version of the 36 megapixel sensor. The 42 basically increases frame rate slightly, improved video a lot, and added PDAF on the sensor (unnecessary for Pentax's purposes). As to the analysis of the sensors themselves, they are really pretty close. SNR curves lie right on top of each other meaning that noise should be the same between these cameras. The difference is that at iso 3200 and better the A7r II has 1 EV more dynamic range. And at base iso the D810 has 1 stop more dynamic range. For my style of shooting, I would be completely satisfied with the D810 sensor -- probably more so than the A7r II, particularly, the presence of iso 64. For all the talk about high iso performance in this thread, Canon sensors are pretty much equal to Sony sensors with regard to high iso performance. If that is what is important, then there is no reason not to go with Canon -- the 6D SNR curve is exactly the same and the dynamic range at iso 800 and above is between D810 and A7r II performance. The issue with Canon's crap sensors is merely that they are significantly worse in low iso dynamic range. But that is not something that most photographers do not maximize anyway. If you are landscape shooter, then maybe a Canon camera isn't best for you, but if you shoot weddings or portraits or even sports, I am sure they would be fine.

11-23-2015, 04:15 AM	#170
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Samsung is closing the camera business because they can't make it work, and you want Ricoh to take that risk?

11-23-2015, 04:35 AM	#171
JanG Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Berlin, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 150	Originally posted by Kunzite Samsung is closing the camera business because they can't make it work, and you want Ricoh to take that risk? To my knowledge the Samsung cams work excellently. Maybe you should check out the NX1 reviews and forum talk? A lot of high praise there. Samsung just could not sell enough of their cams due to their lack of a system, their somewhat erratic history concerning large sensor cams, and, probably, they underestimated the time it needs to establish a brand in the high end market. Pentax is established in large sensor photography, they have a system but they lack a high end mirrorless cam (which might be necessary to have in the future if Sony continues at its current pace). Furthermore, I guess that at least some of the Samsung technology could be got quite cheaply because to sell it is the only way to get some money back of their development costs

11-23-2015, 04:42 AM	#172
kenspo Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Oslo Posts: 2,207	Originally posted by JanG To my knowledge the Samsung cams work excellently. some of their ambassadors regrets signing for Samsung and use the NX1 Not good enough as others in pro use...

11-23-2015, 04:58 AM	#173
JanG Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Berlin, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 150	Originally posted by kenspo some of their ambassadors regrets signing for Samsung and use the NX1 Not good enough as others in pro use... You are sure that is not mainly because Samsung stopped development / lacked a complete system? I think Samsung has some technological goodies to offer that Ricoh could make excellent use of.

11-23-2015, 05:10 AM	#174
kenspo Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Oslo Posts: 2,207	This is 2 months ago..so i dont remember what they said..haha! All ambassadors, talk together when we're meeting on expo's etc.. Same with representatives from brands..I've spoken to both Sony, Nikon and Leica lately!

11-23-2015, 05:25 AM	#175
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by thibs Too early IMO. Technically and on a R&D things, they probably can but it ain't done in a couple months. If they want it (and they should IMO), they'll do it. I think Ricoh makes the image processor in the GR series, so they have the background in it. The FF has been a couple of years in the making, so it not like they started this last month.

11-23-2015, 05:34 AM	#176
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by Rondec If Pentax isn't going to make this camera a video machine then there is no reason not to use a version of the 36 megapixel sensor. The 42 basically increases frame rate slightly, improved video a lot, and added PDAF on the sensor (unnecessary for Pentax's purposes). D810 already does better than A7R that use the 36MP sensor. This is more how Nikon manage to get more out of its iso 50 than anything else. Outside iso50 mode, D810 has 0.3EV gain at iso 100, is similar at iso 200 and worse starting iso 400. That's not so great. The real problem for Pentax to me is the positionning. The best sensor out there is the 42MP BSI sensor. It the one that has the most pixels of Sony FF, the best high iso performance and the dynamic range if it was mounted on a Nikon. Canon has a 50MP sensor but its performance doesn't look so great, so that not big issue. The Cameras with this 42MP BSI sensor are going to get the top score. The MP show clearly that this isn't the same as a camera announced almost 4 year ago. And for all wedding/action/sport shooter the boost on high iso, even if small is not to ignore. This is a matter of having the best or not, and in term of positionning, branding and being discussed everywhere this is important. If Pentax has "only" 36MP it is really important that Nikon doesn't get a 42MP or more on its own and that this is an improved BSI sensor with outstanding performance. If it is just what is in a D810 that was announced 1.5 year ago and very similar to the 4 year old D800, that will not motivate many buyers. Pentax can decide to not compete on the sensor, even if it allowed its K5 to get lot of great review and sell quite well. But then it remove one argument, it need to have other reasons.

11-23-2015, 05:43 AM	#177
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	As an aside, I wonder when Ricoh are going to add something new to the Pentax.com FF teaser site. The current design and content of that site - with it's concealment of the FF body design and air of mystery - seems silly now, given that everyone has seen images of the FF body in New York and Paris. Time to catch up, Ricoh!

11-23-2015, 06:05 AM	#178
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by JanG To my knowledge the Samsung cams work excellently. Maybe you should check out the NX1 reviews and forum talk? A lot of high praise there. Samsung just could not sell enough of their cams due to their lack of a system, their somewhat erratic history concerning large sensor cams, and, probably, they underestimated the time it needs to establish a brand in the high end market. Pentax is established in large sensor photography, they have a system but they lack a high end mirrorless cam (which might be necessary to have in the future if Sony continues at its current pace). Furthermore, I guess that at least some of the Samsung technology could be got quite cheaply because to sell it is the only way to get some money back of their development costs That's not about making one very good camera; actually a flagship which doesn't sell might kill or otherwise put in trouble a camera company. Minolta's 7D, AFAIK, was one such example. The reverse is true: a successful flagship is far from solving a camera division's problems. The thing is, that Samsung's camera division on the whole is in trouble. Whatever problems they might have, Ricoh Imaging would have to solve them.

11-23-2015, 06:39 AM	#179
FantasticMrFox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Munich Posts: 2,339	Originally posted by Kunzite The thing is, that Samsung's camera division on the whole is in trouble. Whatever problems they might have, Ricoh Imaging would have to solve them. No one has suggested buying Samsung's camera division, the suggestion was buying their technology (e.g. information and patents).

11-23-2015, 06:41 AM	#180
JanG Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Berlin, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 150	Originally posted by Kunzite That's not about making one very good camera; actually a flagship which doesn't sell might kill or otherwise put in trouble a camera company. Minolta's 7D, AFAIK, was one such example. The reverse is true: a successful flagship is far from solving a camera division's problems. The thing is, that Samsung's camera division on the whole is in trouble. Whatever problems they might have, Ricoh Imaging would have to solve them. I think you constantly have in mind I was suggesting that Ricoh should buy Samsung's camera division. But that is NOT what I am proposing. I am just talking about buying technology. So: no, Ricoh would not have to solve Samsung's problems. Ricoh could just acquire some technology (sensor, mirrorless etc.) it might need in the future. This could be an opportunity because Samsung will be in trouble to find a buyer for their technology and to get back their development costs.